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The Carbon Flame War
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Roger Caffin
(rcaffin) - BPL Staff - MLife

Locale: Wollemi & Kosciusko NPs, Europe
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: The ENSO effect on 06/03/2011 16:44:05 MDT Print View

> cultures that were successful but then collapsed because of environmental changes

It is believed that some of the huge (for the time) cities of the Mayan or Inca civilisations (not sure which) actually died because they created a bit too much water pollution around them and they 'housing developed' their farming land which had been feeding them. Basically, they grew too big to be sustainable. Any analogies with the LA valley etc are purely coincidental.

Cheers

Tom Kirchner
(ouzel) - MLife

Locale: Pacific Northwest/Sierra
Re: Carbon vs air pollution in general on 06/03/2011 17:00:23 MDT Print View

"Especially as relates to increasing incidences of asthma and other respiratory ailments. What I'd be concerned about is an increasing amount of elderly worldwide with COPD who need to be supported, not to mention less healthy younger people"

Not to mention increased rates of skin cancers from the depleted ozone layer in the Southern Hemisphere, E.g. Chile, Argentina, New Zealand(South Island). Also increased oxides of nitrogen and sulphur which have all sorts of negative effects in the environment.

Tom Kirchner
(ouzel) - MLife

Locale: Pacific Northwest/Sierra
Re: See: climate change is the new advertising catch phrase on 06/03/2011 17:03:27 MDT Print View

"So now the politicians, lobbyists, grant seekers, administrators, bureaucrats, quasi-scientists, unemployable scientists, hidden agenda-alarmists, power brokers, and others have re-named it "Climate Change" to try and take more money from those who earn it, and try to control their lives."

Hey Nick,


Welcome back. Do you really think it's that black and white, with no validity at all to what the above mentioned list of ne'r do wells are claiming? Just curious.

Tom Kirchner
(ouzel) - MLife

Locale: Pacific Northwest/Sierra
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: The ENSO effect on 06/03/2011 17:14:52 MDT Print View

"they created a bit too much water pollution around them and they 'housing developed' their farming land which had been feeding them. Basically, they grew too big to be sustainable. Any analogies with the LA valley etc are purely coincidental."

Why stop there? We are losing prime agricultural land at an alarming rate all over the nation to development. The argument for this policy is that, in a globalized economy, we can merely import what we need. Not a very wise, or secure, policy, IMO. Friends become not so friendly at some point in the future and all of a sudden we have a food problem. My own feeling is that there should be a federal law declaring land containing Class I and II soils to be a strategic asset to be used only for agriculture. Up here in Washington State we have some of the finest agricultural land in the US and it is under severe development pressure. For anyone who has ever had their hands in the soil, the sight of a strip mall sitting on what was once Class II soil is enough to bring tears to the eyes. The same situation applies in many other parts of the country, but this is the one I am most familiar with. Flame away all you property rights folks. ;)

Nick Gatel
(ngatel) - MLife

Locale: Southern California
Re: Re: See: climate change is the new advertising catch phrase on 06/03/2011 18:26:49 MDT Print View

"Do you really think it's that black and white, with no validity at all to what the above mentioned list of ne'r do wells are claiming?"

No. But I do not think it is the purpose of government to conduct scientific research, or even pay for it. And for many pursuing the Climate controversy, government research is a piggy bank they do not have to put money into, or repay when they steal the money.

The other issue is how well the my list of ne'r do good manipulates public opinion, especially the stupid people who are too lazy to try and determine the facts for any issue they hop on to support.

What has been really nice about the last part of this long thread is that Roger and others are trying to determine the real facts.

Nick Gatel
(ngatel) - MLife

Locale: Southern California
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: The ENSO effect on 06/03/2011 18:29:39 MDT Print View

"My own feeling is that there should be a federal law declaring land containing Class I and II soils to be a strategic asset to be used only for agriculture."

You already know my thoughts on this.

But I have a rational solution. Those who think the land should not be developed should just buy it and keep farming it. Free market at its best.

George Matthews
(gmatthews) - MLife
Re: Re: ecosystems on 06/03/2011 18:34:39 MDT Print View

Part 2 is on ECOSYSTEMS

The story of how our modern scientific idea of nature, the self-regulating ecosystem, is actually a machine fantasy. It has little to do with the real complexity of nature. It is based on cybernetic ideas that were projected on to nature in the 1950s by ambitious scientists. A static machine theory of order that sees humans, and everything else on the planet, as components - cogs - in a system.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?annotation_id=annotation_586753&v=Yq0xVuRG4ng&feature=iv

George Matthews
(gmatthews) - MLife
Re: Re: Re: ecosystems on 06/03/2011 19:24:11 MDT Print View

The balance of nature was created by early computer scientists who simplified nature so they could program their computers. Then there was an acceptance that it was the truth. Eventually we realized that if you build in the complexity that nature is constant change.

Examples, after a fire or tornado nature does not return back to what it was, but transforms to something else.

If you think it through you can see how the climate change science is the same model. In reality what we are trying to measure, understand and control is changing.

George Matthews
(gmatthews) - MLife
Re: Re: mayan civilization fall on 06/03/2011 19:32:34 MDT Print View

I watched a netflix download last weekend called Ancient Aliens. Was fun to watch. They argue that ancient aliens visited the planet.

They discussed the Mayans.

What I wonder now is: did those aliens leave or did they stay?

: )

Rog Tallbloke
(tallbloke) - F

Locale: DON'T LOOK DOWN!!
Tornadoes and global warming - the non-link on 06/04/2011 13:49:33 MDT Print View

My second favourite weather forecaster is Joe B*stardi. Big personality, waves his arms a lot, has plenty to say about climate alarmism:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ef4d0_tAoO4&feature=player_embedded

Nick Gatel
(ngatel) - MLife

Locale: Southern California
Re: Re: Re: Re: ecosystems on 06/04/2011 13:59:44 MDT Print View

The balance of nature was created by early computer scientists who simplified nature so they could program their computers. Then there was an acceptance that it was the truth. Eventually we realized that if you build in the complexity that nature is constant change.





GIGO.

Rog Tallbloke
(tallbloke) - F

Locale: DON'T LOOK DOWN!!
Re: Re: as we travel through space on 06/04/2011 14:04:27 MDT Print View

As we debate the carbon flame war, we know we are riding on a planet that is spinning as it orbits through space around our sun. But how fast?

George: everything you need to know about this was dealt with by Eric Idle 30 years ago:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=buqtdpuZxvk

The lyrics: I've updated it with an extra verse on climate change. ;-)

Just remember that you're standing on a planet that's evolving
And revolving at nine hundred miles an hour,
That's orbiting at nineteen miles a second, so it's reckoned,
A sun that is the source of all our power.
The sun and you and me and all the stars that we can see
Are moving at a million miles a day
In an outer spiral arm, at forty thousand miles an hour,
Of the galaxy we call the 'Milky Way'.
Our galaxy itself contains a hundred billion stars.
It's a hundred thousand light years side to side.
It bulges in the middle, sixteen thousand light years thick,
But out by us, it's just three thousand light years wide.
We're thirty thousand light years from galactic central point.
We go 'round every two hundred million years,
And our galaxy is only one of millions of billions
In this amazing and expanding universe.

The universe itself keeps on expanding and expanding
In all of the directions it can whizz
As fast as it can go, at the speed of light, you know,
Twelve million miles a minute, and that's the fastest speed there is.
So remember, when you're feeling very small and insecure,
How amazingly unlikely is your birth,
And pray that there's intelligent life somewhere up in space,
'Cause there's bugger all down here on Earth.

Now the planet's getting hot "IT'S CO2!" or maybe not
It's got the hacks and greens in such a spin
We're taxed into the ground, for driving cars around
And jetting of to Spain is such a sin
But don't you fret just yet
Keep your cool and hedge your bet
The temperature is dropping every day
The ocean cooling down will stop the gulf stream flowing round
And the glacier from the north is on its way

:-)

Rog Tallbloke
(tallbloke) - F

Locale: DON'T LOOK DOWN!!
Re demise of the Mayans on 06/04/2011 14:11:19 MDT Print View

Roger Caffin said:
It is believed that some of the huge (for the time) cities of the Mayan or Inca civilisations (not sure which) actually died because they created a bit too much water pollution around them and they 'housing developed' their farming land which had been feeding them. Basically, they grew too big to be sustainable.

Hi Roger. Another contributing factor was the onset of the little ice age causing crop failures. This spelled the end of several cultures, including the Greenland Vikings. No farming on Greenland today, so it was probably a fair bit warmer than now in the medieval warm period. There have been attempts to explain away this awkward phenomenon as a 'localised event'. However, there are now so many proxy data sets from all around the world that this does'nt wash anymore. This is a huge problem for the co2 driven climate hypothesis.

George Matthews
(gmatthews) - MLife
Re: Re: Re: eric song update on 06/04/2011 14:20:53 MDT Print View

Rog - excellent updated song! worthy of a grammy

George Matthews
(gmatthews) - MLife
Re: Tornadoes and global warming - the non-link on 06/04/2011 14:24:42 MDT Print View

Agree - Joe Bastardi is good. Nice link!

George Matthews
(gmatthews) - MLife
Re: Re: Re: See: climate change is the new advertising catch phrase on 06/04/2011 14:31:03 MDT Print View

Nick said: What has been really nice about the last part of this long thread is that Roger and others are trying to determine the real facts.

Knowing what we don't know if extremely important in my opinion.

Interesting how a computer model (eco or financial) or human (Ayn R. or Alan G.) can create something that others believe to be the way. Then suddenly unexpected feedback shatters the belief. Then we repeat.

Edited by gmatthews on 06/04/2011 14:32:58 MDT.

George Matthews
(gmatthews) - MLife
Re: Re: Re: unexpecteds on 06/04/2011 14:39:50 MDT Print View

How about that rock that soared by Earth closer that the Moon? Did this not also happen last year or so ago?

About a 50-50 chance every 100 years. When we least expect it - hello rock!

http://www.irishweatheronline.com/news/space/asteroid-narrowly-missed-earth/8766.html

George Matthews
(gmatthews) - MLife
Re: Assie climate change sceptics endangered on 06/04/2011 14:52:31 MDT Print View

http://www.goldcoastmail.com.au/story/2011/06/03/climate-change-sceptics-endangered-study/

CLIMATE change sceptics are an endangered species in Australia, a national survey shows.

The survey of almost 3100 Australians found 74 per cent believe the world's climate is changing.

When asked a different question about the causes of climate change, which removed the reference to personal beliefs, 90 per cent of respondents said human activity was a factor.

George Matthews
(gmatthews) - MLife
Re: prevent global warming on 06/04/2011 14:55:27 MDT Print View

http://www.santacruzsentinel.com/localnews/ci_18205668

SANTA CRUZ -- Local elected, environmental and business leaders met Friday to discuss how the Central Coast can tackle climate change, refining an effort that began in 2007 and striving to make the region a leader in preventing global warming.

George Matthews
(gmatthews) - MLife
: ) on 06/04/2011 14:56:15 MDT Print View

: )