Craig, all of which goes to show that it is human nature that nudges the economic climate this way and that. Since people can almost never agree on anything (this thread is a perfect example), there is no way that there is any real control over any of the economics of the world.

Mkay, you really did not notice a theme to all of that? I did not mean to imply "control", just a predictable factor called greed. I'm seeing one direction in our economic climate these nudges from human nature help along, ogliarchy.

"Let's go back 100 years or so, to a time when there were no safety regulations, no child labor laws, no environmental protection laws, and unions were put down violently, often by the police, when they attempted to organize workers to attain decent working conditions and wages. Where were the objective laws then? What recourse did workers and children have?"

When I was quite young I was curious as to why the right in Australia was so against unions: I thought that there would have to be really compelling reasons. I was astonished to discover that it was nothing more than because of Adam Smith's concerns about labour "inflexibility" - i.e., we couldn't reduce our employees pay and conditions when it suited us.

I think a lot of people have forgotten what working conditions were like a 100 years ago and why the unions were necessary: 12 - 18 hour working days 6 days a week, children working from the age of 12 or younger, no concern for safety or long-term health, even payment in company scrip that could only be spent in company stores - the list goes on. Matewan was a pretty bleak film but sadly what it depicted was based on reality.

Mkay, you really did not notice a theme to all of that?

Heh heh! Actually, I did, but there's been so much knee jerk reactionism in this thread that I figured there was a point of contention in there somewhere that you were trying to make. It looks like we were agreeing, after all!

(not that agreeing with me is necessarily a good thing!)

Edited by butuki on 11/24/2010 06:13:24 MST.

even payment in company scrip that could only be spent in company stores - the list goes on.

Here in Japan, when I worked teaching English under the umbrella of Toyota (the same place where I met my wife, working in the system) all of the employees from the poorer countries had their passports taken from them so that they couldn't wander off the industrial complex (I worked for a separate company, so wasn't subject to the company rules. Taking a passport from a foreign national is against international law). This was in part to keep an eye on these "undesirables" out in Japanese society, but also to keep the Japanese populace from finding out what appalling conditions these workers work kept in... apartments designed for 2 people filled with 15 to 18 workers, sometimes mixing men and women from cultures where men and women as strangers didn't live in such proximity, silence when a worker got injured while working at the machines on the assembly lines, even night raids on the apartments by the local police just to scare the workers. Because these people are non-Japanese the local laws could be ignored and all sorts of liberties taken.

I've long ago abandoned any notion that corporations are benevolent. It is money and nothing but money. They wouldn't be so big if it was anything else.

Edited by butuki on 11/24/2010 06:24:29 MST.

Hey Rog T,

How's the weather there?

"How's the weather there?"

How high's the water, Rog?

5 feet high an' risin'.

Freezin'!! Here's an out of the window shot at my workplace right now:



My old dad says it hasn't been like this in late November/start December since the Atlantic Multidecadal Oscillation last turned negative in the late 1940's.

He also gave me this quirky bit of weather lore:

If t'ice before christmas'll bear a duck['s weight]
Nowt much after but slush an' muck.

Time will tell.


Looks wet in oz too
http://www.abc.net.au/news/video/2010/12/01/3082076.htm?site=brokenhill

Edited by tallbloke on 12/02/2010 06:37:30 MST.

Interesting - my old mom reflected about winter in Europe back then. Many old pictures of much snow.

Thanks for the great pic.

Stay cozy!

I assumed Rog was partying (or protesting) in Cancun at the UN Climate Summit.

I'd love to know how much this summit will cost.

"Looks wet in oz too"

For a change I wish we could get some of that over here. I'm sick of this lovely, warm, dry, spring/early summer weather :)

"I'd love to know how much this summit will cost."

And who's footing the bill.

The problem is that it takes an exceptional Southern Oscillation Index for us to get what in Melbourne is supposed to be our long-term average rainfall. Perth on the other hand is having extremely hot weather ...

Craig says:
I assumed Rog was partying (or protesting) in Cancun at the UN Climate Summit.

I'd love to know how much this summit will cost.

Heh, I've been busy helping to get the agenda together for the hopefully more useful conference being organised for Lisbon, and contributing to the discussion at climate scientist Judith Curry's blog http://judithcurry.com

I doubt the Cancun conference has a carbon footprint anything like the size of Copenhagen's. Smaller heating bill for sure. Fewer pop stars jetting in on their own jumbo's too.

And apparently it's not about climate anymore (since the 'science' got busted). It's about wealth redistribution. I wonder if anyone noticed there's not much wealth to redistribute at the moment.

Arapiles, it's a big continent. Don't worry, there will always be a dry corner of it for you to worry about.

Rog T,

Good luck with Lisbon.

Had our first snow here in Virginia USA. A chilly week ahead is the forecast.

I will pull up a polar bear, pop a Cresta, and dream of a white Christmas.

Sing it Bing...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PA45TnJQxhU

"And who's footing the bill."

The "green" revolution.
The "green" economy.
"Green" products.
"Green" technology.
...Paving the way to a "green" America.

Green is the color of money!
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yr3Qgbk-gBQ&feature=related

Green is the Colour
by Pink Floyd

Heavy hung the canopy of blue
Shade my eyes and I can see you
White is the light that shines through the dress that you wore

She lay in the shadow of the wave
Hazy were the visions of her plate
Sunlight on her eyes but moonshine made her blind every time

Green is the colour of her kind
Quickness of the eye deceives the mind
Envy is the bond between the hopeful and the damned

Rog, what/when is the conference in Lisbon? I seem to remember you mentioned February, but it's not a well publicised conference, so I'm not sure what the agenda or list of speakers etc... is all about. Is it private or academic, or both?

Hi Lynn,
can't reveal everything yet, because it isn't finalised and formal invitations haven't been circulated. It will be a mixture of climate scientists pro and anti the co2 model, philosophers and historians of science, sociologists specialising in conflict resolution, and a number of policy gurus/economists.

Full details as soon as I can. Promise.

Chris Gillham:

Western Australia’s monopoly daily newspaper, The West Australian, showed no restraint on December 1, 2010, when describing the heat of the spring months just past.

“… the State sweltered its way through the hottest spring on record.”

See http://www.waclimate.net/imgs/west-australian-newspaper-1-12-2010.gif

Trouble is, it wasn’t the hottest spring on record.

To quote the Bureau of Meteorology seasonal statement for the state of WA (http://www.bom.gov.au/climate/current/season/wa/summary.shtml) …

“When averaged over the whole state, spring 2010 was near average.”

November was above average but the seasonal average had to overcome the 7th lowest maximum (and the third wettest) September recorded across WA since records began.

Ongoing drought in the lower south-west may have caused the highest temperatures recorded since 1950, but the remaining two million square kilometres of WA were below or well below average. However, the press has stated that WA had its hottest spring on record so the dye is cast.

Australia’s BoM doesn’t need to exaggerate temperature trends when the media can turn average seasons into sweltering records.