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George Matthews
(gmatthews) - MLife
Re: Polls on global warming effects on 10/28/2010 04:50:22 MDT Print View

http://www.gallup.com/poll/126560/americans-global-warming-concerns-continue-drop.aspx

See the March 2010 Gallup if overlooked or forgotten

The average American is now less convinced than at any time since 1997 that global warming's effects have already begun or will begin shortly.


gallop

Rog Tallbloke
(tallbloke) - F

Locale: DON'T LOOK DOWN!!
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: A principled stand by a real climate scientist on 10/28/2010 04:58:33 MDT Print View

I see the Climate Inquiry whitewashers are taking a bit of flak at the moment.

http://climateaudit.org/

George Matthews
(gmatthews) - MLife
Re: Re: Polls on global warming effects - remember drinking water worries on 10/28/2010 05:00:53 MDT Print View

interesting that Gallup in April 1999 found...

On the eve of the 30th annual celebration of Earth Day, a new Gallup poll finds that Americans have grown increasingly satisfied this decade with the nation's environmental protection efforts. A majority still sees room for improvement, but there is a growing perception that there has been progress in dealing with environmental problems and that society-particularly government and the public-expresses a sufficient amount of concern for the issue. Perhaps most striking, two-thirds of Americans today say they are generally satisfied with the state of environmental protection in the U.S., up from barely half who felt this positively six years ago.

...

Americans seem most concerned about the pollution of drinking water, with 68% worrying "a great deal" about this problem. Other big concerns to more than half the public include toxic waste contamination, pollution of rivers, lakes and reservoirs, and air pollution. Of the eleven issues tested this year, Americans are the least concerned about "acid rain," mentioned as a great concern by just 29%, followed by "global warming," at 34%.


http://www.gallup.com/poll/3904/Environmental-Concern-Wanes-1999-Earth-Day-Poll.aspx

Rog Tallbloke
(tallbloke) - F

Locale: DON'T LOOK DOWN!!
Re: Re: Re: Polls on global warming effects - remember drinking water worries on 10/28/2010 06:25:12 MDT Print View

Interesting polling technique to conduct the poll on a day when the media has been building up 'Earth Day' for weeks in advance.

I've just been installing another rainwater collecting and purifying system, this time at Tallbloke Towers. I have around 70m^2 of roof area, and my area gets around 28" of rain annually. This should yield around 45,000 litres, which I think is just about enough to make Kath and I independent from the local water company.

George Matthews
(gmatthews) - MLife
Re: Re: climateaudit.org on 10/28/2010 12:33:26 MDT Print View

Yes, looking all flakked up. Good format for presenting info on that site.


pea and thimble

Rog Tallbloke
(tallbloke) - F

Locale: DON'T LOOK DOWN!!
Market tip: Sell dead theories - buy thermals on 10/29/2010 02:30:58 MDT Print View

A couple of months ago, and to some derision, I said that my climate model was telling me that temperatures were about to fall sharply. Here's what has happened to sea surface temperature (Blue/Black)and lower tropospheric air temperature (red) since:

.sst+lt-2010-10

As you can see, air temperature is now following sea surface temperature downwards. Due to the much higher thermal capacity of the ocean, and the fact that it is the ocean which mostly controls the air temperature, the 0.3 drop in ocean temp will equate to over half a degree centigrade or about 1F drop in air temperature. So far. There is further to go.

Brace for another cold N.H. winter.

Edited by tallbloke on 10/29/2010 05:49:15 MDT.

Arapiles .
(Arapiles) - M

Locale: Melbourne
Re: Re: Re: Re: Polls on global warming effects - remember drinking water worries on 10/29/2010 05:48:20 MDT Print View

"This should yield around 45,000 litres"

I work it out at closer to 49,000 litres.

But that doesn't sound like much water use per annum - the five of us use that every quarter, which is actually very low usage. For two people, maybe 90,000 per annum?.

My 20,000 or so litres are now on line - it's supposed to rain 40 - 60 mm this weekend, so with roughly 200 m2 of roof that should see 8000+ litres this weekend. I hope.

Rog Tallbloke
(tallbloke) - F

Locale: DON'T LOOK DOWN!!
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Polls on global warming effects - remember drinking water worries on 10/29/2010 05:56:14 MDT Print View

You are thinking like a climate modeler. I'm thinking like an engineer. There will be evaporative losses when light summer showers hit warm roof tiles, and further losses when large slabs of snow slide off the roof over the gutters in winter.

There's just two of us, and we shower every working day at the Gym and Pool on our way home, so less use than you might expect. I went onto a water meter a couple of years ago and our meter shows 85M^3. I am expecting irrigation water use to increase next summer though, so we might not quite make full independence.

2" of rain forecast for Melbourne over the weekend! So the floods last month weren't just a flash in the pan. Sounds like the drought is well and truly broken down there. Good news.

200m^2 eh Arapiles. That's a decent size homestead you have there. Finance lawyership must have done well for you. ;-)

Edited by tallbloke on 10/29/2010 07:21:29 MDT.

George Matthews
(gmatthews) - MLife
Re: effects - drinking water - on 10/29/2010 09:41:26 MDT Print View

Rog and Arapiles,

I'm encouraged by your two water projects. Think I'm going to try to capture some rain water. Whatever happens to the temperature, preparing for floods and droughts makes sense. Seems like more and more location are experiencing one or another. Often areas not so far apart.

Where are some good references/links to get started?

George Matthews
(gmatthews) - MLife
Re: Re: effects - waiting for cup of tea to cool on 10/29/2010 09:52:47 MDT Print View

This came to mind while walking this morning...

I read a book about Stephen Hawking. One story I recalled was how he and his fellow students at Cambridge debated whether it was quicker to pour milk into your hot tea or just to leave it be in order to be able to drink it.

They said that he finally came up with the answer. Leave it be - because heat goes away faster in relation to the amount of heat. In other words, the tea temperature dropped quicker without adding milk.

Was wondering if on a macro scale, if this is what the planet does. Adjusting based on several variables - but adjusting at different rates.

Like the group of physics students - the answer was not so obvious initially.

Hmmmm, maybe I walked too fast and too far : )


hawking

Roger Caffin
(rcaffin) - BPL Staff - MLife

Locale: Wollemi & Kosciusko NPs, Europe
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Polls on global warming effects - remember drinking water worries on 10/29/2010 15:58:50 MDT Print View

> 200m^2 eh Arapiles. That's a decent size homestead you have there.

Ever heard of a barn roof?

Cheers

George Matthews
(gmatthews) - MLife
Re: ever heard the barn of seamus on 10/29/2010 18:22:16 MDT Print View

Seamus Heaney

The Barn

Threshed corn lay piled like grit of ivory
Or solid as cement in two-lugged sacks.
The musty dark hoarded an armoury
Of farmyard implements, harness, plough-socks.

The floor was mouse-grey, smooth, chilly concrete.
There were no windows, just two narrow shafts
Of gilded motes, crossing, from air-holes slit
High in each gable. The one door meant no draughts

All summer when the zinc burned like an oven.
A scythe's edge, a clean spade, a pitch-fork's prongs:
Slowly bright objects formed when you went in.
Then you felt cobwebs clogging up your lungs

And scuttled fast into the sunlit yard -
And into nights when bats were on the wing
Over the rafters of sleep, where bright eyes stared
From piles of grain in corners, fierce, unblinking.

The dark gulfed like a roof-space. I was chaff
To be pecked up when birds shot through the air-slits.
I lay face-down to shun the fear above.
The two-lugged sacks moved in like great blind rats.


barn


How about this for a target for my rain collection project?

Arapiles .
(Arapiles) - M

Locale: Melbourne
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Polls on global warming effects - remember drinking water worries on 10/29/2010 23:44:01 MDT Print View

"You are thinking like a climate modeler. I'm thinking like an engineer. There will be evaporative losses when light summer showers hit warm roof tiles, and further losses when large slabs of snow slide off the roof over the gutters in winter."

Actually I presume a pitched roof and that therefore the actual roof area (vs the nominal coverage) will effectively cancel out the efficiency losses. But I must admit I don't take into account that precipitation totals may include snow.

Arapiles .
(Arapiles) - M

Locale: Melbourne
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Polls on global warming effects - remember drinking water worries on 10/29/2010 23:48:44 MDT Print View

"> 200m^2 eh Arapiles. That's a decent size homestead you have there.

Ever heard of a barn roof?"

Actually, that's the rough ground coverage. But unlike the US and UK a high percentage Australian houses are single-storey so the house isn't that big.

Also, we have a very large skillion roof which was designed with water capture in mind.

Rog Tallbloke
(tallbloke) - F

Locale: DON'T LOOK DOWN!!
Re: Re: ever heard the barn of seamus on 10/30/2010 03:45:20 MDT Print View

Hey George,
nice poem, very evocative.

Great looking property! What's the tower all about? Grain store? The house looks boarded up. The roof has what look like panels on. Are they solar panels or temporary repairs or something?

I just invented my systems as I went. Over here you can pick up 1000 litre plastic tanks in tubular steel cages pretty cheap from the food industry. I connected five together with 1" plastic piping and I use a slow sand filter I built in the cellar to purify the rainwater. I would have liked a few more to tide me through a drought period of more than two months but space is limited.

http://www.slowsandfilter.org/ is a useful site.

It's a good idea to insulate and sheet over the tanks to prevent freezing in winter and algae growing in summer. I use a solar panel and wagon battery to run the pump which lifts the water to the tank under the roof. Then the taps in the kitchen and bathroom are gravity fed from that.

Arapiles, how does the pitch of the roof affect the area of collection? The same amount of rain is going to fall on a 40M^2 area no matter what the roof angle under it is n'est pas?

I was only pulling your leg about your 200m^2, single story means bigger roof area as you say. A good cheap way to keep the interior cooler is to uncoils a few hundred meters of black hosepipe all over the roof and pump water round it through a heat exchanger in a tank. You get a free hot bath at the end of the day too. Much cheaper than fancy solar hot water panels. Next step up in price are the plastic solar pool heaters.

Rog Tallbloke
(tallbloke) - F

Locale: DON'T LOOK DOWN!!
Travesty Trenberth does it again! on 10/30/2010 03:57:04 MDT Print View

Kevin Trenberth, lead author on the last three IPCC reports is famous for the comment he made in the climategate emails to other members of the climate clique.

"We can't explain the lack of warming at the moment, and it's a travesty we can't."

Now, in an interview with the IEEE he has put his foot in his mouth again:
http://spectrum.ieee.org/energy/environment/how-to-fix-the-climatechange-panel

"Scientists almost always have to massage their data, exercising judgment about what might be defective and best disregarded."

Really Kevin?

Imagine this statement coming from a representative scientist from the pharmaceutical industry. Or from a bridge designer...

The cavalier disregard for the scientific method amongst the climate 'Team' members almost beggars belief.

If outliers in data are not included in the final graph curve the reasons why must be openly discussed in the write up, not swept under the carpet or tucked behind a thick line representing different datasets tacked onto the end of the graph, a la Jones-Mann "hide the decline" 'hockey stick' temperature curve.

George Matthews
(gmatthews) - MLife
Re: Re: Re: not my barn on 10/30/2010 05:02:17 MDT Print View

http://www.igs.ie/Programmes/Buildings-at-Risk/Wonderful-Barn.aspx

The Wonderful Barn was built in 1743 as a famine relief scheme by Katherine Conolly of Castletown, widow of William ‘Speaker’ Conolly. Described as ‘arguably one of the finest follies to be found in Ireland’, it was conceived not only as a functional grain store but as an architectural eye-catcher which would provide an eastern terminating vista from the grounds of Casteltown.

====
I thought it looked like a good prototype for a rain collector.

I am going to start with a plastic barrel or two.

Thanks for the link.

Rog Tallbloke
(tallbloke) - F

Locale: DON'T LOOK DOWN!!
Re: Re: Re: Re: not my barn on 10/30/2010 06:28:09 MDT Print View

George,
you'll be amazed how quickly a barrel fills from even a small roof in a heavy rain. The tanks I have hold around 220 imperial gallons. If you use 45 gallon barrels then 5 of them equal approx 1 cubic metre. You'll need to find a cheap effective method of linking them or it'll get expensive.

Have a look at IBC tote tanks on ebay. They do seem quite a lot more expensive in the U.S. but if you ask around, you'll find someone wanting rid of a bunch for cheap.

Arapiles .
(Arapiles) - M

Locale: Melbourne
Re: Re: Re: ever heard the barn of seamus on 10/31/2010 00:54:01 MDT Print View

"Arapiles, how does the pitch of the roof affect the area of collection? The same amount of rain is going to fall on a 40M^2 area no matter what the roof angle under it is n'est pas?"

Interesting question. A larger surface area will collect more water than a smaller surface area. Most roofs here are gabled: the ground area they cover may be, for example 40m2, but the actual area of the roof will be greater than that - the extent of which will depend on the angle. Our roof is very steep so the actual surface area is more than the ground area covered. Hence why I think that if I caculate on the basis of ground area the efficiency losses will be cancelled out.

By the way, our tanks are now about 70% full: we had good rain yesterday.

Bob Gross
(--B.G.--) - F

Locale: Silicon Valley
Re: Re: Re: ever heard the barn of seamus on 10/31/2010 01:31:00 MDT Print View

"Arapiles, how does the pitch of the roof affect the area of collection? The same amount of rain is going to fall on a 40M^2 area no matter what the roof angle under it is n'est pas?"

It depends on whether the rain is falling vertically or blown horizontally or whatever angle in between.

If the rain is falling vertically, then a steeply pitched roof will gather less rain. If the rain is blown horizontally, then a steeply pitched roof will gather more rain.

--B.G.--