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Arapiles .
(Arapiles) - M

Locale: Melbourne
Re: Re: The Carbon Flame War on 10/16/2010 02:44:13 MDT Print View

"Maybe she was desperate?

Oooooh, DW, have you taken out insurance on your dignity or male prowess?"

True story: before we were married we went skiing with my girlfriend's older brother and a friend of his who my girlfriend had never met before. After an hour or so we met to have a drink and the friend turned to my girlfriend and said "you know your brother said you were ugly but you're not that bad"

Miguel Arboleda
(butuki) - MLife

Locale: Kanto Plain, Japan
Re: The Carbon Flame War on 10/16/2010 03:01:35 MDT Print View

DW, I took the liberty of ignoring you while you were composing your punchline and writing more in my earlier post.

After an hour or so we met to have a drink and the friend turned to my girlfriend and said "you know your brother said you were ugly but you're not that bad"

You know those manga moments when the character is surprised by what someone says and the face blows up and the eyes bugger out and the snot shoots out of one nostril? That's my reaction right now. Is the brother still alive?

Edited by butuki on 10/16/2010 03:05:20 MDT.

Arapiles .
(Arapiles) - M

Locale: Melbourne
Re: Re: The Carbon Flame War on 10/16/2010 04:51:16 MDT Print View

"Crocodile Dundee, Mad Max, Picnic At Hanging Rock, Walkabout, The Man from Snowy River, The Year of Living Dangerously, Gallipoli, Young Einstein, My Brilliant Career, Coca-Cola Kid (I fell in love with Greta Scacch), even Bliss! The only movie I can think of that completely took place in an Australian City was "Malcolm"."

I'm impressed that you've heard of them. Malcolm was a favourite.

Edited by Arapiles on 10/16/2010 04:52:08 MDT.

Arapiles .
(Arapiles) - M

Locale: Melbourne
Re: Re: The Carbon Flame War on 10/16/2010 04:54:04 MDT Print View

"Is the brother still alive?"

He wasn't there when the friend made the comment but you should've seen the look he got from my girlfriend when he came back.

Rog Tallbloke
(tallbloke) - F

Locale: DON'T LOOK DOWN!!
Carbon Flame War rekindled on 10/17/2010 09:44:50 MDT Print View

Ben Said:
"I know some of you were happy, some of you were sad that the posting stopped at 1000 posts. It was an errant setting, that took a while to find, that prevented it from continuing.
That's been fixed, so for better or for worse, post away."

Thanks for your diligence Ben, looks like there has been some action on this thread while I've been sluimming it around the Andorran Refuggios with Kath ove the last week. I'm looking forward to having a catchup.

Rog Tallbloke
(tallbloke) - F

Locale: DON'T LOOK DOWN!!
Hal Lewis resignation over climate change fraud. on 10/17/2010 10:21:07 MDT Print View

Rick Dreher says:
http://climateprogress.org/2010/10/11/hal-lewis-resigns-from-the-american-physical-society/
"Although he was terrific as Grampa Munster."

Rick may think the viewpoint of a paid propagandist financed by George Soros is the word on this.

I would encourage people to read what Hal actually wrote:
http://wattsupwiththat.com/2010/10/16/hal-lewis-my-resignation-from-the-american-physical-society

=====================================================
Sent: Friday, 08 October 2010 17:19 Hal Lewis

From: Hal Lewis, University of California, Santa Barbara
To: Curtis G. Callan, Jr., Princeton University, President of the American Physical Society

6 October 2010

Dear Curt:

When I first joined the American Physical Society sixty-seven years ago it was much smaller, much gentler, and as yet uncorrupted by the money flood (a threat against which Dwight Eisenhower warned a half-century ago).

Indeed, the choice of physics as a profession was then a guarantor of a life of poverty and abstinence—it was World War II that changed all that. The prospect of worldly gain drove few physicists. As recently as thirty-five years ago, when I chaired the first APS study of a contentious social/scientific issue, The Reactor Safety Study, though there were zealots aplenty on the outside there was no hint of inordinate pressure on us as physicists. We were therefore able to produce what I believe was and is an honest appraisal of the situation at that time. We were further enabled by the presence of an oversight committee consisting of Pief Panofsky, Vicki Weisskopf, and Hans Bethe, all towering physicists beyond reproach. I was proud of what we did in a charged atmosphere. In the end the oversight committee, in its report to the APS President, noted the complete independence in which we did the job, and predicted that the report would be attacked from both sides. What greater tribute could there be?

How different it is now. The giants no longer walk the earth, and the money flood has become the raison d’être of much physics research, the vital sustenance of much more, and it provides the support for untold numbers of professional jobs. For reasons that will soon become clear my former pride at being an APS Fellow all these years has been turned into shame, and I am forced, with no pleasure at all, to offer you my resignation from the Society.

It is of course, the global warming scam, with the (literally) trillions of dollars driving it, that has corrupted so many scientists, and has carried APS before it like a rogue wave. It is the greatest and most successful pseudoscientific fraud I have seen in my long life as a physicist. Anyone who has the faintest doubt that this is so should force himself to read the ClimateGate documents, which lay it bare. (Montford’s book organizes the facts very well.) I don’t believe that any real physicist, nay scientist, can read that stuff without revulsion. I would almost make that revulsion a definition of the word scientist.

So what has the APS, as an organization, done in the face of this challenge? It has accepted the corruption as the norm, and gone along with it.
For example:

1. About a year ago a few of us sent an e-mail on the subject to a fraction of the membership. APS ignored the issues, but the then President immediately launched a hostile investigation of where we got the e-mail addresses. In its better days, APS used to encourage discussion of important issues, and indeed the Constitution cites that as its principal purpose. No more. Everything that has been done in the last year has been designed to silence debate

2. The appallingly tendentious APS statement on Climate Change was apparently written in a hurry by a few people over lunch, and is certainly not representative of the talents of APS members as I have long known them. So a few of us petitioned the Council to reconsider it. One of the outstanding marks of (in)distinction in the Statement was the poison word incontrovertible, which describes few items in physics, certainly not this one. In response APS appointed a secret committee that never met, never troubled to speak to any skeptics, yet endorsed the Statement in its entirety. (They did admit that the tone was a bit strong, but amazingly kept the poison word incontrovertible to describe the evidence, a position supported by no one.) In the end, the Council kept the original statement, word for word, but approved a far longer “explanatory” screed, admitting that there were uncertainties, but brushing them aside to give blanket approval to the original. The original Statement, which still stands as the APS position, also contains what I consider pompous and asinine advice to all world governments, as if the APS were master of the universe. It is not, and I am embarrassed that our leaders seem to think it is. This is not fun and games, these are serious matters involving vast fractions of our national substance, and the reputation of the Society as a scientific society is at stake.

3. In the interim the ClimateGate scandal broke into the news, and the machinations of the principal alarmists were revealed to the world. It was a fraud on a scale I have never seen, and I lack the words to describe its enormity. Effect on the APS position: none. None at all. This is not science; other forces are at work.

4. So a few of us tried to bring science into the act (that is, after all, the alleged and historic purpose of APS), and collected the necessary 200+ signatures to bring to the Council a proposal for a Topical Group on Climate Science, thinking that open discussion of the scientific issues, in the best tradition of physics, would be beneficial to all, and also a contribution to the nation. I might note that it was not easy to collect the signatures, since you denied us the use of the APS membership list. We conformed in every way with the requirements of the APS Constitution, and described in great detail what we had in mind—simply to bring the subject into the open.

5. To our amazement, Constitution be damned, you declined to accept our petition, but instead used your own control of the mailing list to run a poll on the members’ interest in a TG on Climate and the Environment. You did ask the members if they would sign a petition to form a TG on your yet-to-be-defined subject, but provided no petition, and got lots of affirmative responses. (If you had asked about sex you would have gotten more expressions of interest.) There was of course no such petition or proposal, and you have now dropped the Environment part, so the whole matter is moot. (Any lawyer will tell you that you cannot collect signatures on a vague petition, and then fill in whatever you like.) The entire purpose of this exercise was to avoid your constitutional responsibility to take our petition to the Council.

6. As of now you have formed still another secret and stacked committee to organize your own TG, simply ignoring our lawful petition.

APS management has gamed the problem from the beginning, to suppress serious conversation about the merits of the climate change claims. Do you wonder that I have lost confidence in the organization?

I do feel the need to add one note, and this is conjecture, since it is always risky to discuss other people’s motives. This scheming at APS HQ is so bizarre that there cannot be a simple explanation for it. Some have held that the physicists of today are not as smart as they used to be, but I don’t think that is an issue. I think it is the money, exactly what Eisenhower warned about a half-century ago. There are indeed trillions of dollars involved, to say nothing of the fame and glory (and frequent trips to exotic islands) that go with being a member of the club. Your own Physics Department (of which you are chairman) would lose millions a year if the global warming bubble burst. When Penn State absolved Mike Mann of wrongdoing, and the University of East Anglia did the same for Phil Jones, they cannot have been unaware of the financial penalty for doing otherwise. As the old saying goes, you don’t have to be a weatherman to know which way the wind is blowing. Since I am no philosopher, I’m not going to explore at just which point enlightened self-interest crosses the line into corruption, but a careful reading of the ClimateGate releases makes it clear that this is not an academic question.

I want no part of it, so please accept my resignation. APS no longer represents me, but I hope we are still friends.

Hal

==========================================================

Harold Lewis is Emeritus Professor of Physics, University of California, Santa Barbara, former Chairman; Former member Defense Science Board, chmn of Technology panel; Chairman DSB study on Nuclear Winter; Former member Advisory Committee on Reactor Safeguards; Former member, President’s Nuclear Safety Oversight Committee; Chairman APS study on Nuclear Reactor Safety Chairman Risk Assessment Review Group; Co-founder and former Chairman of JASON; Former member USAF Scientific Advisory Board; Served in US Navy in WW II; books: Technological Risk (about, surprise, technological risk) and Why Flip a Coin (about decision making)
=================================================

Edited by tallbloke on 10/17/2010 10:26:14 MDT.

Rick Dreher
(halfturbo) - MLife

Locale: Northernish California
Re: Hal Lewis resignation over climate change fraud. on 10/17/2010 12:27:56 MDT Print View

"Rick may think the viewpoint of a paid propagandist financed by George Soros is the word on this."

Care to substantiate this lie in defense of Lewis' lies, or would you like it added to your nearly infinite tab?

Rog Tallbloke
(tallbloke) - F

Locale: DON'T LOOK DOWN!!
Re: Re: Hal Lewis resignation over climate change fraud. on 10/17/2010 13:13:01 MDT Print View

Rick Dreher said:
"Care to substantiate this lie in defense of Lewis' lies"


Care to substantiate your accusation that I have told lies on this thread, or that Hal Lewis is a liar, or will you fail to come back with anything substantial and disappear for a while as usual?

Climateprogress.org runs off the same server as thinkprogress.org which is a website run by personnel of and paid for by the Center for American Progress.

>tracert www.climateprogress.org

Tracing route to climateprogress.org [208.87.104.6]
over a maximum of 30 hops:

1 2 ms 1 ms 1 ms 192.168.1.1
2 * * * Request timed out.
3 34 ms 33 ms 51 ms 62.24.254.240
4 32 ms 34 ms 52 ms gig-14-1-4009-rtr001.hex.opaltelecom.net [62.24.
254.241]
5 71 ms 92 ms 58 ms xe-10-0-0-rt001.man.as13285.net [78.151.225.7]
6 42 ms 34 ms 67 ms xe-11-3-0-rt002.man.as13285.net [62.24.240.129]

7 57 ms 47 ms 52 ms xe-11-1-0-rt001.the.as13285.net [62.24.240.6]
8 46 ms 40 ms 41 ms host-78-144-0-192.as13285.net [78.144.0.192]
9 72 ms 54 ms 124 ms host-78-144-0-164.as13285.net [78.144.0.164]
10 52 ms 45 ms 82 ms peer1.ldn1.flagtel.com [195.66.224.146]
11 122 ms 156 ms 146 ms so-1-0-0.0.pjr02.ldn001.flagtel.com [85.95.25.9]

12 121 ms 119 ms 165 ms so-1-0-0.0.pjr01.nyc007.flagtel.com [85.95.25.2]

13 133 ms 142 ms 140 ms ge-0-0-1.0.cjr02.nyc007.flagtel.com [85.95.26.81
]
14 151 ms 126 ms 131 ms 62.216.147.58
15 157 ms 137 ms 138 ms 209.213.202.42
16 200 ms 195 ms 202 ms 209.213.202.26
17 205 ms 201 ms 231 ms va-rt-1-gi1-0.techprogress.org [208.97.234.35]
18 150 ms 154 ms 152 ms tp-web.techprogress.org [208.87.104.6]

Trace complete.

>tracert www.thinkprogress.org

Tracing route to tp-web.techprogress.org [208.87.104.6]
over a maximum of 30 hops:

1 1 ms 1 ms 2 ms 192.168.1.1
2 39 ms 108 ms 43 ms host-92-14-48-1.as43234.net [92.14.48.1]
3 105 ms 122 ms 84 ms 62.24.254.240
4 39 ms 32 ms 34 ms gig-14-1-4009-rtr001.hex.opaltelecom.net [62.24.
254.241]
5 60 ms 33 ms 40 ms xe-10-0-0-rt001.man.as13285.net [78.151.225.7]
6 104 ms 94 ms 104 ms xe-11-3-0-rt002.man.as13285.net [62.24.240.129]

7 82 ms 41 ms 48 ms xe-11-1-0-rt001.the.as13285.net [62.24.240.6]
8 41 ms 49 ms 53 ms host-78-144-0-192.as13285.net [78.144.0.192]
9 48 ms 52 ms 41 ms host-78-144-0-164.as13285.net [78.144.0.164]
10 49 ms 55 ms 50 ms peer1.ldn1.flagtel.com [195.66.224.146]
11 122 ms 128 ms 127 ms so-1-0-0.0.pjr02.ldn001.flagtel.com [85.95.25.9]

12 * 146 ms 135 ms so-1-0-0.0.pjr01.nyc007.flagtel.com [85.95.25.2]

13 145 ms 138 ms 124 ms ge-0-3-0.0.cjr02.nyc007.flagtel.com [85.95.26.85
]
14 133 ms 124 ms 126 ms 62.216.147.186
15 133 ms 137 ms 132 ms 209.213.202.42
16 277 ms 252 ms 149 ms 209.213.202.26
17 148 ms 188 ms 185 ms va-rt-1-gi1-0.techprogress.org [208.97.234.35]
18 161 ms 170 ms 176 ms tp-web.techprogress.org [208.87.104.6]

Trace complete.

And a whois lookup reveals:

Domain Name:TECHPROGRESS.ORG
Created On:27-Jul-2006 19:59:47 UTC
Last Updated On:05-Dec-2009 06:41:39 UTC
Expiration Date:27-Jul-2011 19:59:47 UTC
Sponsoring Registrar:GoDaddy.com, Inc. (R91-LROR)
Status:CLIENT DELETE PROHIBITED
Status:CLIENT RENEW PROHIBITED
Status:CLIENT TRANSFER PROHIBITED
Status:CLIENT UPDATE PROHIBITED
Registrant ID:CR32267838
Registrant Name:Debbie Fine
Registrant Organization:Center for American Progress


Both are bankrolled by Soros, as anyone with a bit of investigative talent can easily discover. Joe Romm is bankrolled by the CAP with Soros' cash.

I found the info on Soros' own foundation website.
But it's also on wikipedia:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/George_Soros
"In an interview with The Washington Post on November 11, 2003, Soros said that removing President George W. Bush from office was the "central focus of my life" and "a matter of life and death." He said he would sacrifice his entire fortune to defeat President Bush, "if someone guaranteed it."[36] Soros gave $3 million to the Center for American Progress, $5 million to MoveOn.org, and $10 million to America Coming Together. These groups worked to support Democrats in the 2004 election. On September 28, 2004 he dedicated more money to the campaign and kicked off his own multi-state tour with a speech: Why We Must Not Re-elect President Bush"

Best get some polish out for your clown shoes Rick.

Oh, and you might consider apologising for calling me a liar too.

Edited by tallbloke on 10/18/2010 00:26:51 MDT.

Jason Elsworth
(jephoto) - M

Locale: New Zealand
Centre for American progress on 10/17/2010 14:27:16 MDT Print View

Sourcewatch can be a useful resource for following the money. I went there as soon as I read the post on Hall Lewis.

http://www.sourcewatch.org/index.php?title=Center_for_American_Progress

Joseph Romm (who I presume wrote the Hall Lewis hit piece) is listed as a fellow. He is former acting assistant secretary of energy for energy efficiency and renewable energy during the Clinton Administration, and a blogger at climateprogress.org.

Please note I am not saying that anything he wrote wasn't true, but it does make you wonder :)

Lynn Tramper
(retropump) - F

Locale: The Antipodes of La Coruna
Re: Re: Re: The Carbon Flame War on 10/17/2010 15:09:23 MDT Print View

I would also like to know how issues such as environmental pollution and destruction of habitats could be dealt with without some form of government intervention.

For the record, I live in a country that has more area, as a percentage of land, under government protection (i.e. national parks) than any other country. I pay taxes to support this. For the record I also happen to think I live in the *best country in the world*. I think the two are closely linked!

It also occurred to me this weekend that the reason I ended up in this country 30 years ago was that I couldn't afford to continue my education in the USA. I got nearly straight A's at high school, blitzed the SATs, yet I could not get a decent scholarship at the time because I was white during a time of very active reverse discrimination. I supported myself through community college by waitressing, and I often wonder what my life would have been like if I had stayed...I could have joined the military to advance my education in a field I was not interested in, I could have joined McDonald's and worked my way into McD's universty and made a career in fast food (a career I was REALLY not interested in), or I could have stayed in waitressing and I probably would have been OK in the short term. In the long term I am eternally grateful for the free tertiary education I got in my adopted country. I think I have paid it back in full by being in full time tax-paying employment in a field I love since then. I am NOT well paid, yet I enjoy a lifestyle and a *freedom* few people I know in America enjoy. You can have your capitalist no-holds barred fend for yourself approach to governing. I want no part of it...I am more than happy to give up some of my *freedom* from taxation, or my *freedom* to pack a firearm, to name a few freedoms, for the good of society as a whole. I think this system works much better than charity, which is notoriously unreliable at the best of times.

I actually think freedom from the fear of hunger and thirst are the biggest freedoms I have here. This became very much more clear to me after our recent earthquake. Supply chains and water were a mess, but realising that I live in the middle of an agricultural/horticultural region of primary producers, with an abundance of clean running rivers nearby, a whole southern ocean of sea-food at my doorstep, and a decent plot of well gardened land meant I had no real fear of hunger, provided we have a meddlesome government who would mandate the redirection of export goods to local markets. So I agree that if your primary producers (and the folks who work for them for minimum wage) were to go on strike, you would feel it a lot more than if the top 20% of high earning value-added workers were to go on strike.

Nick Gatel
(ngatel) - MLife

Locale: Southern California
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Son of Carbon Flame War on 10/18/2010 00:03:34 MDT Print View

"You are typing on one item that has untold number of opportunities. Some of the richest people in the world, built their fortunes around these appliances."

And your point is?
-------------------------------------------------------------
The point is that there are more opportunities for Americans to be successful than in any other time in history. Technology keeps opening more doors every day.




Nick. You seem to be implying that there is a direct correspondence of brains with wealth and drive, to the exclusion of those who are not wealthy. I could as well ask you what would happen if the 2% or whatever low number it is these days who grow our food went on strike. I'll make a flat statement here: The millions of backyard gardners and small local farmers would fare far better than the folks you are talking about. We might even end up with a more equitable society where people worked cooperatively for the common good out of the realization that, ultimately, all we have is each other.
----------------------------------------------------------
The majority of Americans who work in the private sector have a job because a businessman created the job. We constantly glorify the poor workers who are taken advantage of by business. But without the businessmen, most of these people would not have a job. So what if all these businessmen went on strike, instead of the workers who have historically gone on strike? What if the businessmen said, okay we are tired of you taking advantage of us. We quit. It is the theme of a famous novel. I present that scenario only as a thought starter. The richest man in the world is Bill Gates. Last time I checked Microsoft had around 50,000 employees in the US. Point here is that the founders of Microsoft created the those jobs... not the employees. Americans need businessmen to create jobs.

Miguel Arboleda
(butuki) - MLife

Locale: Kanto Plain, Japan
Re: Son of Carbon Flame War on 10/18/2010 00:46:46 MDT Print View

Americans need businessmen to create jobs.

Nick, just what is it with you and your focus on "Americans"? The world has become a very integrated place these days, and even a company like Microsoft depends on people around the globe to make Gates as rich as he is. It isn't just Americans. Americans don't, no matter how much they want to believe it, live in isolation. That's what the word "multi-national" denotes.

BPL is not just an American gathering of people. Just this thread alone has quite a large number of people from around the world. Why can't you include all of us in the discussion? It doesn't cost you anything! Not even your dignity!

People EVERYWHERE, not just in the States, need the jobs created and to work the jobs.

People need other people to lead and to follow in the jobs. It doesn't work one way. It never has. Employers need employees to do the work, employees need employers to lead the jobs, one can't exist without the other. You're bandying words by making it sound as if it is purely the businessmen who are responsible for the phenomenon of "work". It's a societal thing... a businessman alone on a mountaintop is not a businessman, just a man alone on top of a mountain. Just as you would be absolutely nothing today were it not for all those people who were and are willing to work with and for you. Even a despot needs to be a despot of something and over someone, otherwise he'd be awfully alone with his sour mood.

Edited by butuki on 10/18/2010 00:49:09 MDT.

Rog Tallbloke
(tallbloke) - F

Locale: DON'T LOOK DOWN!!
Re: Centre for American progress on 10/18/2010 00:50:21 MDT Print View

Jason Elsworth said:
Sourcewatch can be a useful resource for following the money. I went there as soon as I read the post on Hall Lewis.

http://www.sourcewatch.org/index.php?title=Center_for_American_Progress

Joseph Romm (who I presume wrote the Hall Lewis hit piece) is listed as a fellow. He is former acting assistant secretary of energy for energy efficiency and renewable energy during the Clinton Administration, and a blogger at climateprogress.org.


Joe Romm is a paid propagandist who censors opposing views on his climateprogress website and indulges in character assassination of the vilest kind. He is forced to do this because he has no valid reply to the logical scientific argumentation which proves him wrong.

I find his semantic antics comical. You can set your calendar by his annual summertime melt season claims of the arctic ice being "in a death spiral", followed by his silence on the issue when year after year in the fall arctic sea ice extent shows a strong recovery since it's 60 year cyclic low point in 2007.

http://www.ijis.iarc.uaf.edu/seaice/extent/AMSRE_Sea_Ice_Extent_L.png

Of course, he never discusses antarctic sea ice extent, which has been rising on average for the last thirty years.

http://arctic.atmos.uiuc.edu/cryosphere/IMAGES/seaice.anomaly.antarctic.png

Edited by tallbloke on 10/18/2010 00:59:47 MDT.

Nick Gatel
(ngatel) - MLife

Locale: Southern California
Re: Re: Son of Carbon Flame War on 10/18/2010 01:07:15 MDT Print View

Nick, just what is it with you and your focus on "Americans"? The world has become a very integrated place these days, and even a company like Microsoft depends on people around the globe to make Gates as rich as he is. It isn't just Americans. Americans don't, no matter how much they want to believe it, live in isolation. That's what the word "multi-national" denotes.

-----------------------------------------------------------
Miguel,

Far question. I have responded to many statements from others that were specific to the US. My intent was to clarify that my comments were specific to the US. It is not meant to slight any other country or any BPL member. But since they are my opinions, I do not want anyone to think they are blanket statements applicable to peoples outside the US.

Rog Tallbloke
(tallbloke) - F

Locale: DON'T LOOK DOWN!!
Re: The Carbon Flame War on 10/18/2010 01:11:07 MDT Print View

inconvenient lighter

Miguel Arboleda
(butuki) - MLife

Locale: Kanto Plain, Japan
Re: The Carbon Flame War on 10/18/2010 03:19:12 MDT Print View

I've got to hand it to you, Rog, you certainly know how to stay on topic!

Miguel Arboleda
(butuki) - MLife

Locale: Kanto Plain, Japan
Re: Son of Carbon Flame War on 10/18/2010 03:28:27 MDT Print View

Nick, I think when it comes down to the inner workings of economics, in general it all follows the same principles everywhere. We may have divided the world up into little enclaves, but it's still one world working on the same natural patterns of survival. We wilderness walkers should understand that better than most. I don't think it does any harm to spread the discussion out among all of us. We may not always agree, but we, you included, do understand. Otherwise we couldn't have this discussion.

Craig W.
(xnomanx) - F - M
Re: Re: Son of Carbon Flame War on 10/18/2010 08:45:42 MDT Print View

"The majority of Americans who work in the private sector have a job because a businessman created the job. We constantly glorify the poor workers who are taken advantage of by business. But without the businessmen, most of these people would not have a job."

What of the constant glorification of the businessman?

If they create all the jobs, who creates them?

To whom does the businessman owe his debt? Is it not doctors, teachers, plumbers, mechanics, cashiers, construction workers, cooks, clerks, and all the rest of us?

See how well this businessman would do if his day was busied fetching well water, tending livestock and vegetables, educating his own children, repairing cars, building houses, delivering children, building his own computers and writing his own software, unclogging drains, and replacing roofs...

I'd wager there wouldn't be much time for engaging in business, let alone much else.

It all comes full circle. Let's be careful about who we put on top. Last I checked, we can't eat money.

Nick Gatel
(ngatel) - MLife

Locale: Southern California
Re: Re: Re: Son of Carbon Flame War on 10/18/2010 10:33:31 MDT Print View

> What of the constant glorification of the businessman?

It is man who I want to glorify, not the businessman. It just seems that I am one of the few champions of the businessman, too many people want to blame businessmen for all of the worlds problems, and at the same time demand that business fix the problems of the world.

Mankind cannot exist beyond a subsistence agrarian life unless it has two things; 1) minds that create the structure that enable societies to peacefully trade goods and services and 2) intellectual professions, which allow man to achieve his potential (philosophers, scientists, teachers, etc.).

We demand that business produce, but we do not have a philosophy that values what business gives us. We all too often demand that business provide us what we need or want, and we try to enslave business to work for our benefit, with the message that the businessman is evil.

After the spark of genius of the Ionian period, modern civilization degraded into the mire of the dark ages, where most people were tied to the land under an oppressive feudal system. It was the resurrection of the intellectuals who got us out of this. Thomas Aquinas "rediscovered" Aristotle, we moved to the Enlightenment, and eventually to the Industrial Revolution. The intellectuals showed us the true nature of man; man who is entitled to live his life in his own self-interest, and the fact that no man deny another man of his right to his own life, his own liberty, his property, and his pursuit of happiness.

In 19th century America, the Industrial Revolution, provided men with the highest standard of living in the history of mankind, and in a short period of time double the average life span of men. This Revolution also fueled the abolition of slavery, allowing all men to work for their own self interest.

Not all businessmen are good. Those who seek power, or political pull are evil. But our world does not respect the role of businessmen as good; it is viewed as a necessary evil, to be controlled by the politicians. We can control business by spending our money with those businesses we choose to support with our money.

"To whom does the businessman owe his debt?" Only to those intellectuals who discovered the nature of man, and his right to his own life. The businessman does not owe a debt to "doctors, teachers, plumbers, mechanics, cashiers, construction workers, cooks, clerks, and all the rest of us." The businessman deals with all of them as a trader. He engages in commerce with them and pays for these goods and services freely.

The businessman does not have to spend his days "etching well water, tending livestock and vegetables, educating his own children, repairing cars, building houses, delivering children, building his own computers and writing his own software, unclogging drains, and replacing roofs." That is because he has used his brain to create goods and services, which he can trade for others to do these tasks. And the masses can avoid these tasks, by trading their services with the business owner creating a personal surplus, that can be used to pay someone else to provide these services for him also. With these we get trail shoes, silnylon, cuben fiber, canister stoves, etc, etc.

To me, this whole thread is about the need to recognize the importance the intellect and the role intellectuals play in our world. We cannot exist without an ongoing dialogue of ideas and independent minds that come up with original ideas. And alert minds challenge ideas where appropriate, they do not just accept the flowery-phrased rhetoric of so called experts who have their own hidden agendas. To many folks accept the mumblings of experts, akin to the declarations of the witch doctor in some primitive tribe. I think Rog has contributed the most useful thinking and ideas during the long life of this thread.

The Carbon Flame War is not going to be won or resolved by politicians. It is not a matter of politics, it is a matter of science. Science can resolve it with the "scientific method," not a scientific political agenda.

Rog Tallbloke
(tallbloke) - F

Locale: DON'T LOOK DOWN!!
Re: Re: Re: Re: Son of Carbon Flame War on 10/18/2010 11:40:49 MDT Print View

Nick, thanks for your kind words. In my opinion you are one of the clearer heads on BPL and I mostly agree with your no-nonsense approach to economic and social organisation, although as Lynn points out, there are areas in which state intervention to control environmental excess and a level of social support for the unlucky, unable, unwilling and unwell can actually make society a pleasanter place to live for all. Including the more able entrepreneurs who have to shoulder a bigger portion of the tax burden to achieve this.

The world can only run on give and take, and it always feels like you have to give more than you get. That's probably just our ego's overvalueing our own input, plus a failure to allow for the natural inefficiencies of social organisation.