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The Carbon Flame War
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Roger Caffin
(rcaffin) - BPL Staff - MLife

Locale: Wollemi & Kosciusko NPs, Europe
Re: "The Carbon Flame War" on 06/06/2011 16:29:37 MDT Print View

Just checking to see how the software is going ...

Tom Kirchner
(ouzel) - MLife

Locale: Pacific Northwest/Sierra
Re: Re: Rights, World Govt and Climate Alarmism on 06/06/2011 17:11:19 MDT Print View

"Global! Warming! Alarm! gives those who would love to extend this system worldwide the perfect excuse. What you drive, what you eat how much you breathe when exerting, how you heat your home, how you cool your home, how MUCH you heat or cool your home; all these will become subject to regulation, with penalties for using more than has been deemed appropriate by bureaucrats who live well paid and comfortable lives at our expense. To what purpose? The state knows from its scientists that reduction of human co2 emission will have virtually no effect whatsoever on the global average temperature. What it is really all about is making people feel they have to keep their heads down and do as they are told. It's about social control and political power over individual citizens."

Et tu, Rog? :(

At least tell me you don't believe in black helicopters. Please?

"Think I'm a black helicopter nutcase?"

I confess, you've got me to wondering.

"I heard that in America, 9-11 has been used as an excuse to radically extend the powers of the security forces to enter homes, hold people without charge or access to a lawyer, and so on."

This is definitely a concern, for a lot of us on this side of the pond, but I think it's a stretch to extrapolate from this general issue to a Warmista plot to take over the world.

"Tell me it ain't so, I've always looked to the american people to defend the right of the individual from arbitrary state interference."

The American people have grown complacent and passive, not to mention apathetic, all of which has increased the likelihood that a small determined group of neo fascists will try to do exactly what you are worried about. However, this country has always had a tremendous ability to self correct, and I have not yet given up hope that just such a correction lies in the not too distant future as economic conditions continue to deteriorate to the point where millions of Joes will not be able to afford their six paks. Then comes the day of reckoning when thousands of would be Mussolinis may well find themselves meeting a similar end. The next 2 election cycles in this country will be very interesting in that regard, IMO. Be of good cheer and stay tuned. All is not yet lost. I hope.

Craig W.
(xnomanx) - F - M
Re: Re: Re: Rights, World Govt and Climate Alarmism on 06/06/2011 17:16:36 MDT Print View

"The next 2 election cycles in this country will be very interesting in that regard, IMO. Be of good cheer and stay tuned. All is not yet lost. I hope."


Awww...Tom.
I'm usually right with you...But don't tell me you still believe in electoral change.

Tom Kirchner
(ouzel) - MLife

Locale: Pacific Northwest/Sierra
Re: Re: Re: Re: Rights, World Govt and Climate Alarmism on 06/06/2011 17:26:02 MDT Print View

"Awww...Tom.
I'm usually right with you...But don't tell me you still believe in electoral change."

It's the default position of an old man who has grown to abhor the alternatives, Craig. That being said, my belief is hanging by a thread and frankly I think the next 2 election cycles will either pull us back from the brink or send us spiralling into a dark place I, for one, have no desire to visit. It's hard to be optimistic, I admit....

David Lutz
(davidlutz)

Locale: Bay Area
"The Carbon Flame War" on 06/06/2011 17:35:36 MDT Print View

"I think the next 2 election cycles will either pull us back from the brink or send us spiralling into a dark place I, for one, have no desire to visit. It's hard to be optimistic, I admit...."

It's funny, I agree with you 100%, but I'm pretty sure we're thinking of the exact opposite circumstances!

Tom Kirchner
(ouzel) - MLife

Locale: Pacific Northwest/Sierra
Re: "The Carbon Flame War" on 06/06/2011 17:46:30 MDT Print View

"It's funny, I agree with you 100%, but I'm pretty sure we're thinking of the exact opposite circumstances!"

Hmmmm. I'm in the dark as to what you're getting at. Would you care to elaborate?

Rog Tallbloke
(tallbloke) - F

Locale: DON'T LOOK DOWN!!
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Rights, World Govt and Climate Alarmism on 06/06/2011 17:52:38 MDT Print View

I still have a vision of a bright future. I have to admit the vision starts with Jim Hansen getting a swift slap upside the earhole though.

Everyone needs the thinking cap on, because the politicians don't have any better ideas than anyone else. I think China is more concerned about preventing volatile western investment cycles screwing up the Pacific rim countries than in taking over world finance. I think they'll be a positive player in the upcoming re-adjustment.

Anyway, who's up for a good climate cartoon?

.rummy climate

George Matthews
(gmatthews) - MLife
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Rights, World Govt and Climate Alarmism on 06/06/2011 20:15:06 MDT Print View

Where are Niels and Albert?

What are the chances of there being a Bohr-Einstein like debate in present times on climate or any subject?

Would the TV networks cover such a debate?

Or would there be continuing coverage of the investigation into who did Paul Revere warn?

Doug I.
(idester) - MLife

Locale: MidAtlantic
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Rights, World Govt and Climate Alarmism on 06/06/2011 20:19:46 MDT Print View

"Or would there be continuing coverage of the investigation into who did Paul Revere warn?"

News flash: Paul Revere admits it was he who flashed young women by the light of his lanterns. For the last week he has steadfastly denied culpability, insisting instead that someone hacked his lanterns. Today he tearfully admitted the truth.

But quickly added that he will not stop riding.....

George Matthews
(gmatthews) - MLife
Re: Re: if we go insane on 06/06/2011 20:33:32 MDT Print View

If I were a swan, I'd be gone.
If I were a train, I'd be late.
And if I were a good man,
I'd talk with you more often than I do.

If I were asleep, I could dream.
If I were afraid, I could hide.
If I go insane,
Please don't put your wires in my brain.

If I were the moon, I'd be cool.
If I were a rule, I would bend.
If I were a good man,
I'd understand the spaces between friends.

If I were alone, I would cry.
And if I were with you, I'd be home and dry.
And if I go insane,
Will you still let me join in with the game?

If I were a swan, I'd be gone.
If I were a train, I'd be late again.
And if I were a good man,
I'd talk with you more often than I do.


====
If
Pink Floyd

Tom Kirchner
(ouzel) - MLife

Locale: Pacific Northwest/Sierra
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Rights, World Govt and Climate Alarmism on 06/06/2011 20:41:16 MDT Print View

"I think they'll be a positive player in the upcoming re-adjustment."

I would say they'll be a pragmatic player, like the adults they are. I guess you could call that positive, especially compared to the antics we are so often treated to by our own fearless leaders.

George Matthews
(gmatthews) - MLife
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Rights, World Govt and Climate Alarmism on 06/06/2011 20:45:34 MDT Print View

It is a generational thing. At times the situation has looked very bleak in the past. That is what changes people. Then it gets better. It has followed such a pattern for about five hundred years with Anglo-Saxon history.

The idiots will be run out of town.

Tom Kirchner
(ouzel) - MLife

Locale: Pacific Northwest/Sierra
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: The ENSO effect on 06/06/2011 21:08:12 MDT Print View

"some do not see a relationship between development of land and sustainability"

I know, and that is discouraging, at least to me and many others who have an abiding love and reverance for the land that supports and nurtures us. Development of quality agricultural land will be a major contributor to our ultimate undoing if left unchecked, IMO.

"i can see a future where developed land gets transformed back into farm land. maybe in places like detroit. local farming possibly."

It's not quite that simple, George. Wherever development takes place the topsoil is removed, exposing soil layers generally high in oxides of iron and aluminum and very poor structure, not to mention whatever toxic chemicals have leached into the lower layers of the soil profile as a result of decades, if not centuries, of human activity. They are also devoid of the countless varieties of interrelated bacteria, fungi, macro organisms, etc, that contribute to fertile soil in countless ways. It takes years and years of expensive effort to bring such soils up to some level of fertility and detoxify them. Even then they will never come close to duplicating what nature took thousands of years to develop. Parts of a city like Detroit that were not built upon, lawns and parks for instance, could potentially be used, if they were not too polluted, but most of Detroit has either been paved or developed into buildings of various kinds and will be very difficult to convert to agricultural uses. Far wiser to limit our development to agriculturally marginal land and preserve the irreplaceable gift that nature has bequeathed to us for its highest and best use. We shall not get a second chance, and the mouths to be fed are increasing by tens of millions with each passing year.

Tom Kirchner
(ouzel) - MLife

Locale: Pacific Northwest/Sierra
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Rights, World Govt and Climate Alarmism on 06/06/2011 21:29:48 MDT Print View

"At times the situation has looked very bleak in the past. That is what changes people. Then it gets better. It has followed such a pattern for about five hundred years with Anglo-Saxon history.

The idiots will be run out of town."

To be replaced by? More idiots?

Let us hope we run out of idiots before they manage to burn the town down.

Tom Kirchner
(ouzel) - MLife

Locale: Pacific Northwest/Sierra
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Rights, World Govt and Climate Alarmism on 06/06/2011 21:40:53 MDT Print View

"But quickly added that he will not stop riding....."

Despite angry calls from the Tea Pary for his resignation?

Steofan The Apostate
(simaulius) - F

Locale: Bohemian Alps
Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Re: Rights, World Govt and Climate Alarmism on 06/06/2011 22:31:30 MDT Print View

Fly your Google Earth map over to the town of Sundial, West Virginia. Zoom out a bit and look NW of the town. It's called mountain top removal coal mining and is perfectly legal and it leaves a rather large scar. Protesting against it is illegal (but ongoing) as the WV government has sold out the state and everyone else downstream to energy companies.
Take a good look and tell yourself as you fall asleep tonight that this chaos will NEVER make it out to to your state, or to the neodynuim deposits in my backyard.
G'night! Sleep tight!

George Matthews
(gmatthews) - MLife
Re: create your own income distribution graphs on 06/07/2011 11:00:31 MDT Print View

Tom, Good points you make. Thanks for shared your wisdom.

All,

If you want to have a little fun by creating some graphs of income distribution for several countries, then go here and click on Graphics

http://g-mond.parisschoolofeconomics.eu/topincomes/

Pretty cool IMO. One thing that seems to pop out is extraordinary gain of the top percenters since mid-90s. Interesting how Germany's top percenters have taken a hit, but their country seems to be in better shape than US.

Anyway, check it out.

Somehow this relates to climate change : )

Rog Tallbloke
(tallbloke) - F

Locale: DON'T LOOK DOWN!!
Monthly sea surface temperature update on 06/07/2011 13:38:32 MDT Print View

Enough frivolity, back to the science.

Here the May update for Global SST

.globalsst5-11

Doesn't look like a strong recovery from La Nina to me.
I forecast a drop to below Jan 2008 levels by the end of this year 16 months ago.
I'm still standing by that.

George Matthews
(gmatthews) - MLife
Re: Monthly sea surface temperature update on 06/07/2011 14:00:57 MDT Print View

Please explain your chart a bit more

Rog Tallbloke
(tallbloke) - F

Locale: DON'T LOOK DOWN!!
Re: Re: Monthly sea surface temperature update on 06/08/2011 04:23:52 MDT Print View

George,

The graph shows the global average sea surface temperature (SST). The Y axis shows the 'anomaly' measured in degrees centigrade. The anomaly is how much above or below the 'normal' temoperature the SST is. What is 'normal'? It is taken as being the average SST over a baseline period. In the case of the dataset being used here, the baseline period is that used by NOAA for their OISST product.

The Optimally Interpolated Sea Surface Temperature Data (OISST) are available through the NOAA National Operational Model Archive & Distribution System (NOMADS).
More info here: http://www.emc.ncep.noaa.gov/research/cmb/sst_analysis/

I believe the base climatology period of this graph is 1971-2000

More info here: http://www.cpc.ncep.noaa.gov/products/predictions/30day/SSTs/sst_clim.html