All of my trips so far have been weekenders and overnighters. Living and hiking in Missouri means the weather is fairly mild and I can get away with 5 lbs of gear most of the time. There is definitely an element of caution when I set my pack down and set up my tarp, but over a weekend I can deal with it.

However, I have my first extended trip (6 days) coming up and I've found myself adding a good amount of weight to add both peace of mind and convenience. Right now my tentative pack weight is about 8.6 lbs. I'm quite comfortable with the gear I have selected for the trip. Most of it is stuff that I bring on SUL excursions anyway, like my quilt, poncho-tarp, and windshirt. But I've also added some things like a pair of water resistant chaps and a SP 700 mug and a pocket to carry my camera on my hipbelt.

I had entertained the idea of doing the hike in SUL style, and while I think I could have done it, I opted to take a more comfortable approach. I have a feeling I would have come back with a great story for this thread if I had stayed with the SUL idea this time.

Adam

Adam,

Coming from south west Missouri and now doing my hikes in the mountains in Colorado I can certainly say the amount of sacrifice to reach the SUL categories is very, very different. In good weather in Missouri you could just set off with food and water treatment and maybe toss in a DWR bivy and long johns and be perfectly ok. There's plenty of duff to make into a ground pad and the weather is relatively predictable. Most MO trails are only a few miles from civilization as well.

I think the real point is at what point does sacrificing weight make the trip less enjoyable. This answer will vary from person to person. I personally don't like the fiddle factor of some SUL approaches and am happy with closer to a 8-10 lbs base weight for spring and fall. I've done SUL and at the end of the trip I couldn't say I felt any difference carrying the pack but I did feel I had to spend more time micro managing my gear or being a little more uncomfortable rather than enjoying the beautiful scenery and comradery.

Unless proving that you can do the trip in under 5 points is the point of the trip I know of no one else will tell you that you'll see a difference in fatigue of a 8 lb baseweight vs sub 5 lbs. After all 5 lbs is just a arbitrary number, 8 lbs is still very light weight backpacking. If you feel you have something to prove and that you need to keep it under 5 lbs for a 6 day trip, post up a gear list and I'm sure the BPL community can help you trim it down even more.

Your food and water weight is far more of a consideration at that point anyway. Once those types of weights are acheived it isn't the big 3 being gear, its the big two and both are consumables.

I think there are many more tales of people who went too light on knowledge rather than too light on gear. Looking back on some of my earlier trips I'm amazed we came out ok. For most scenarios keeping your wits about you and practicing your skills will do more to save your skin than any 3 lb med kit.

I wish I could remember who to give credit for but one of the sites I read long ago about alpine climbing survival summed it up as "Suvival is a cup of tea" which basically encourages someone who is lost or otherwise in a panic situation to sit down, make a cup of tea, go through what tools you have available and plan the next move carefully.

It's the panic that usually puts us in tunnel vision mode so we can use what resources we have with us and around us to get us out of a bind. When we are safe at home making our gear lists we aren't in that mode so we can optimistically say, oh if it gets cold I'll just use my trash compactor bag I'm lining my pack with as a vbl or that you'll always be able to start a signal fire those couple of waterproof matches if the going gets tough. When the situation hits you in the face it doesn't always play out how we arm chair expeditionists plan.

Gear wise I've went too light on several trips.

I mistakenly left a stuff sack behind on a 4 day sul kayaking trip. I get to camp to set up my hammock only to realize the bag with the sleeping bag and under insulation fell behind the seat in the vehicle. The forecast was very wrong. It called for 80s for a high and upper 60s for a low. We got non-stop rain for 3 days and it dropped into the upper 30's. I spent most of my camp time huddled around a fire and attempting to sleep in my foil emergency bivy sack. I had made a widly optimistic gear list for clothing (swim suit, synthetic T-shirt and sandles). I got cold enough that I was definately impaired on my thinking and made several other poor decisions on that trip - thankfully it turned out ok but I cut it far too close. In retrospect I could have at least used my PFD as under insulation and I would have been far better on the ground than trying to make the hammock work but I was too unfocused to think out of the box. It probably didn't help that I cut it far too close on food as well. I had cut back my rations too much and it too impaired my judgement. I had a lot of lessons learned from that trip.

More of a cold and miserable trip:
Me and my friend did 4 day trip late February trip in Missouri. Near the end of the trip a wicked cold snap had rolled in. I had barely sufficent insulation but only a torso length non-insulated inflatable ground pad. We had both packed so light that no extra gear was available to put under us and search as we might there wasn't much suitable duff or much else to provide insulation. We had no cookware (cold food only trip) and emergency only firestarting materials. Unfortunately we lacked the skills to make those 2 vaseline coated cotton balls and a fire steel start a fire with less than ideal tinder. I ended up doing sit ups and push ups for 3/4 of the night and even resorted to getting out, unhanging the food bags just to make something to eat.

While not life threatening as I could have bailed into another tent on another trip in southern Arkansas in Janurary we finished up a backpacking trip 2 days early so we stopped to do another trail on the way back to Missouri. I had packed properly for the weather for the first trip but didn't realize that a cold front had hit our 2nd destination. I had brought my hammock with JRB underquilt and a 20 degree bag. That setup was fine to 30 degrees (bottom insulation was the limiting factor) but that night it got down to 5 degrees with howling wind. Thankfully I was able to make shift more insulation by lowering the hammock into a pile of leaves and adjust all of my rain fly mostly sideways to make a massive wind break. I was still horribly cold but without some alternative rigging I'd have at a minimum been shamed into being the 3rd person in a very snug 1.5 - 2 person tent. Again, not life threatening but I certainly wasn't packed properly.

Edited by slacklinejoe on 03/16/2008 01:45:30 MDT.

>>I've now accepted a couple pounds of "fat" back into my gear for the sake of the piece of mind, simplicity, utility and durability that these items offer.

Me too. I find that the fewer items I bring and the less fiddly they are, the more I can forget about the gear and spend my time out there experiencing nature.

Dondo--exactly!

I think I realized recently that although getting lighter means getting lighter, if the fiddle factor increases or the durability significantly decreases . . . simplicity decreases! And I don't just go light for the sake of lightness . . . it's definitely also for the sake of simplicity, for removing my mind from the clutter of the real world.

So yeah, allowing a few lbs of well-chosen "fat" back into my pack really allows me to take a smaller number of things, and be more at ease with those things. That's really important to me.

I think Joseph made a very important point which gets forgotten far too often. Once you have your gear down to a low figure, further reductions are
a) a bit pointless overall
b) hazardous in that your flexibility weather-wise is seriously reduced
c) irrelevant compared to the weight of food and water on any decent length of trip

Another factor to consider: which is more important? Knocking off another 4 oz base weight, or being comfortable and actually enjoying the trip?

I actually think it's a good idea to go "too light" on the comfort scale a number of time.If you don't go too light on the comfort scale, you will never know what your limits actually are. I think it's a bad idea to go too light on the safety scale.

One way to insure you have found your limits without taking a serious risk is to bring some safety items, but not use them unless you think you are at real risk, e.g. not to use the items if you are merely miserable. When I was trying to figure out how far I could push my quilt and insulation I carried a thermawrap jacket in a drybag, but never took it out... even when I was quite chilled. There have been a few trips where my teeth were slightly chattering and I needed to do exercises to warm up... but the thermawrap stayed packed away. If I had gotten to full blown, uncontrolled shivering the thermawrap would have come out... but it wasn't needed.

Once you figure out your limits, add things back until you hit the comfort level / flexibility / simplicity. Most ofmy gear changes in the last year or so have been to simplify life in the back country (like a shelter that is faster / easier to pitch) or reduces the number of items I have to choice between when packing (typical by choicing to use something slightly heavier which gives me a larger range of uses.

--mark

Edited by verber on 03/16/2008 20:38:56 MDT.

Ian makes great points. I would summarize it as too many generations of LW gear sitting on the shelves at home, but not enough in your pack when you need it.

I also learned modern LW backpacking at this site, and I also went too light, in 3 ways:

Safety is compromised. Numerous examples were related above. To throw in my worst case, I had to extract a severely ill companion on a 3,000m+ alpine route- (Miguel and Michael, you know it as the daikiretsu to Yarigatake..)the only viable escape route would have been relatively easy with crampons one axe, and about 20m of rope, but we did not have these because the planned route did not require them and I was on a fast&light summit attempt. We tied every piece of webbing, cord, lanyard, etc. together and I used body bollard, and boot belays to lower my companion. It was ugly. This year on summer routes above 3,000m I will carry 20m of 6mm, Grivel Spider crampons(140g), and a 50cm CampXLA210.

The second example of going too light is when comfort is compromised too much. For example having a too-cold sleeping system or a painful 'onion-sack' of a backpack. I think of spectrum of comfort with 'traveling comfort = light' at one end, and 'in-camp comfort = heavy' at the other end. I make choices from my gear inventory based on the ratio of traveling vs. in-camp time.

Lastly, economy is compromised too much. This has two components,
a. gear which is replaced with even lighter gear: For most requirements I have a succession of lighter and newer gear to fulfill it. As a result, most of it never gets used. That was just a waste of money. The solution is to learn from sites like BPL, but reduce the frequency of purchases.
b.gear which wears out too quickly. Examples are paper-thin rain wear and a light backpack which both tore first day of use.

I have now settled on a core group of gear which is light but also durable and versatile.

This has been a good read, lots of good information here for Nicole.

The only thing I can add is: for me, there's a weight threshold where I can't tell much difference. If my pack weight is under about 15-18 pounds, its light enough and doesn't seem to bear on me and slow me down when carrying it all day.

I tried SUL a lot a couple of summers ago, but found that its hard to go SUL in the mountains at high elevations. For example, its hard to make the SUL base weight and not use a poncho-tarp. For me, SUL gear worked great in good weather, but my kit was a bit borderline in less favorable weather. It also worked better for fast and light trips, where I could predict the weather better.

Since then, I have reverted back to UL and feel very comfortable there. With UL gear, I can still take a good shelter, warm bag, and adequate insulated clothing and stay light. I can handle a rainy trip or an unexpectedly cold night. So that's the safety and comfort factors kicking in - with UL gear I can adapt to the conditions; with SUL gear I'm much more limited (in the mountains) and I can suffer as a result.

On the heavy end, I go LW when I am backpacking with my wife. We bring a few more comfort items, and I know I will be hiking slower anyway. But the 25 pound pack definitely slows me down, I feel the weight, it feels like I'm carrying an anchor in my pack. The disadvantage of going UL all the time is I lose my ability to comfortably carry a heavier pack.

Good luck on your article Nicole!

This is a late contribution, but I have to share. Looking back on it, its pretty funny.

Waking up in between wood runs, to find that your coat is on fire, because your sleeping in the fetal position around the fire. So no gear, could be too light.

Josh

In order of severity:

1. When it is no longer fun
2. When it is no longer safe
3. When you no longer return under your own power

SUL on a weekend where you could hike out if needed is one thing ... SUL on a week long trip where you may be three days hike out of the mountains is another thing all together.

I've done weekends with as little as 4 lbs of baseweight, but I wouldn't want the same load for a week in the mountains.

About 7 to 8 lbs of baseweight gives me a comfortable trip with a good margin of safety.

Some examples:

An emergency bivy is a LOT more comfortable with a Micropuff jacket and a warm hat.

My Down bag has gotten wet before ... twice. I always carry the backup emergency bivy (at 3.5 oz) as an addition to my baseweight.

Twisting your ankle with a full day's hike ahead of you really stinks -- a 2 inch Ace Bandage is worth it's weight in gold.

Getting stung by a nest of wasps when you're trying to do your morning duty, and not having any benadyrl is downright foolish ..... carry some with you.

When attacked by bugs and you run out of deet .... you feel pretty foolish ..... so, don't forget the headnet and some bug stuff.

Too little food is the worst I've suffered. Not life threatening, but I found it impossible to enjoy myself due to the constant hunger.

When I began setting up my tent in the face of an approaching thunder storm and discovered I'd left the tent poles on the backseat.

Unloading my pack to set-up my tent in the face of an approaching thunderstorm and discovering that I had no tent. Sorry Denis, no intent to trump the seriousness of your circumstance.

Edited by johnk on 04/12/2008 15:39:20 MDT.

Bad luck John. At least I was able to jury rig some half vast guy lines to trees and use the tent anyway.

In 1995 a hiker, on a trip I was guiding, forgot his sleeping bag and ended up carrying two blankets he was able to borrow from a friendly person at the trail head. We were camping above 10,000 feet and Art said he didn't get much sleep.

Denis,

I wonder what the first two words spoken were on discovering you had no tent poles? :-)

John,
The BPL "Filth Blocker" won't let me print them.

I think you are going too light when you no longer are carrying a real backpack, no longer wearing boots of any type, and are able to fast pack at such a high speed that basically, you are doing a hybrid of trail running and SUL. I think SUL people aren't REAL backpackers, SUL people are some sort of hybrid between extreme long distance trail runners and a very minimalist backpacker mentality.

SUL is fine for hot summer months in North America, but not for much else.



Eric

At my age, and physical condition, I prefer to carry a much lighter pack than I used to. I have gone from 36/38 pounds, total weight carried for a 6 day trip, to about 27 pounds. My base weight is about 12 pounds, without consumables. It has never been my goal to do high mileages and 10 to 12 miles per day is just about my maximum. I stop often to enjoy the scenery and take photos.

While leading groups of beginning backpackers, which I have done for the past 22 years, I focus on enjoying the experience of being self sufficient, in comfort and safety, in the wilderness.

I like reading BPL posts about new unsupported records for the JMT and various trails, and always enjoy meeting thru hikers on the trail, but it is not why I'm out there.

Carrying less will allow me to continue doing what I enjoy longer and give me memories and stories to tell when I finally "hang up my boots" (or in my case, my Targhee II low tops.)

Every one should HIKE YOUR OWN HIKE. But I'm glad there are some wackos out there showing us what's possible. It has allowed me to get that 10 pounds off my back. Now if I could only get the 10 pounds off my waist.

Edited by redleader on 05/07/2008 21:00:10 MDT.