There are a lot of fans of the Trangia system out there, so I would like to know if anyone has tried the cone with the Trangia stove. I theory it should keep the advantages of the stove it self ( reliability and no-waste fuel storage) as well as at least some of the stability and wind/winter performance of the Trangia stand/windscreen but at a much lesser weight and volume. Someone asked that question already but I have not seen a reply to it.
Franco
BTW I am not saying that the Trail Design stove is not reliable or inefficient...

Franco,
I haven't used the two systems together, but have used both separately. From conversations with Russ at Trail Designs, the height of the pot bottom to the top of the trail designs stove is specifically engineered for maximum burn efficiency. I am not sure how the Trangia differs in height, or if it matters for that stove, but if it is similar, I suspect it would work just fine. On a side note, I have had good luck reclaiming unburned fuel from the Trail Designs stove by simply pouring it back into the measuring cup and then to my fuel bottle.

I haven't tried the Trangia, but I have tried the Feather Fire stove. It is similar in that you can recover unused fuel and turn it down to simmer (from outside the cone, which is a bonus over the Trangia). It works great with the cone. The only downside (compared to the Trangia) is that the feather fire is no as robust.

I've found there is really no way of knowing how a particular stove will perform in a cone without just trying it.

Allison, I wonder if that new featherfire XL would work a little better.

As mentioned, I suspect you're going to lose some thermodynamic efficiency using a Trangia, however the ease-of-use and recovery of full gains may (depending on your hiking style) more than make up for it.

The thermal efficiency of the Feather Fire was as good as any other stove I've tried in the cone. Without cone it took 12g to boil 2 cups. With cone it took 9g. This was with a two quart pot and cone, I have yet to try it with a smaller kit, but I suspect the smaller cone/pot combo will not be as efficient. I'll let youknow tomorrow.

Thank you all for the comments. Still waiting for the TiTri to come back in stock.
Alison
The Aussie that suggested diluting Ethanol was me, I'm actually an Italian born Kiwi who resides in Melbourne. I picked that idea up from some Scandinavian fellow, I think that they use it over there to reduce the heat output but as a side effect it reduces the spread of the flames.

Franco

Franco and others

Tomorrow is a public holiday here, and (amongst other things) I plan to do some more testing. Thanks to Franco, I have reason to believe that slightly watering down ones alcohol *may* increase fuel efficiency. It could also be considered as a way to more approximate a simmer, or reduce flame spread for use on smaller diameter pots. I will try this with and without a cone, and will include the featherfire (which is close to Trangia in function).

Hi Franco, Alilson,

I have done some tests with Australian Methylated spirits (95% ethanol) and water mixes and up to 10% water there is not much reduction in performance but above 10% water the performance drops off dramatically. I have seen no evidence of better performance, I still need to do some more tests to complete the series.

I used my no 27 Trangia for these tests

Tony

Edited by tbeasley on 02/04/2008 17:08:48 MST.

Keep in mind that I used that with the White Box, a pressurized stove, not an open flame like the Trangia. However it may work with the Trangia/Caldera Cone or Featherfire/Caldera Cone combo.
Franco
Just noticed that my metho also is 95% Ethanol, I was sure that I had 97% with another brand...

Hi Franco,

I think the Tangia is considered an open top style pressure stove.

I will be very surprised if any amount of water added to alcohol in any alcohol stove makes it more efficient, my extensive testing has not shown this to be true in any way so far but I will do some more testing to try and find out what is happening.

With Australian Methylated Spirits I have done a search of what is in the other 5 or so percent is made up of and most manufactures only give basic information for the last 5%

For example from Diggers Metho http://www.diggersaust.com.au/files/Methylated%20Spirits%2095.pdf

INGREDIENTS
Ethyl alcohol 64-17-2 95%
Water and denaturants balance
Denaturants may be one or more of the following: Methyl isobutyl ketone, fluorescein, methyl alcohol* or denatonium
benzoate

(I suspect mostly water)

So it is very hard to know exactly how much water there is in Metho fuel when extra water is added.

BTW I just got 2 Nikon D300 for work and can't put them down, awesome cameras, I wish I could take them walking.

Tony

Pots size and windscreen both make a difference.

This is no surprise, and so far I've only trialled the FeatherFire stove with and without caldera cones, so things may change when I get around to testing smaller flame throwers...I'm usung the FeatherFire as a surrogate for the Trangia because they are both open flame, extinguishable stoves that allows me to measure exact fuel consumption by weighing the stove before and after. Starting fuel was always 25g.

1) Foster's can, no windscreen. Boiled 2 cups in 6'30". Used 18 grams of fuel. I did this test twice because the fuel seemed very high, but it came out exactly the same both burns. The flame was reaching almost halfway up the sides of the can by the time it reached full throttle.

2) Foster's can plus caldera cone. Used 16g fuel.

3) AGG 3 cups pan, no windscreen. Boiled in 6'00". Used 14g fuel.

4)Should have been AGG 3cups pot with caldera, but I didn't have a caldera to fit this pot.

5)AGG 2qt pot, no windscreen. Boiled 2 cups in 5'30". Used 13g fuel.

6)AGG 2qt pot plus caldera. Boiled in 7 minutes. Used 10g fuel.

7)AGG 2qt plus caldera, but using 90% methylated spirits (watered down 10%). Exactly the same as burn 6. So with this stove/pot/cone combo, fuel quality made no difference. I know from previous White Box stove experiments that it makes a difference with this stove. I suspect that watering the fuel down may also reduce flame size enough to improve efficiency on smaller diameter pots such as the Foster's.

As you can probably do the maths, the weight savings of using a small diameter pot without a caldera cone will quickly be swamped by the extra fuel you would need to carry. Depends on how long the trip is and how much water you boil, and this is not even taking wind into the equation. I suspect the extra weight of carrying something like the Trangia or FeatherFire will also cancel out over time as you really only need burn exactly the amount of fuel you need for the job, and can completely recover the left overs. The other beauty of these kinds of stoves is the ability to 'over-fuel' them to achieve optimal burning efficiency. Fuel performance drops off when the fuel is either too low or too high. I find around an ounce starting fuel to be about optimal for boiling 2 cups. YMMV

I know this is an old thread, but I just finished a side by side comparison of the trangia vs the caldera cone with the evernew 3 cup aluminum pot.

I spent two nights testing both stoves multiple times.

The first night I was testing the caldera cone windscreen vs. my home made 5 sided pentagon shaped windscreen. Because I was comfortable with the trangia and the caldera cone was new, I did my windscreen testing with the trangia. Short story is there was very little difference between the two windscreens. Both brought 2.5 cups of water to rolling boil in just under 6 minutes. The cone is lighter by 0.1 lbs, but it is much flimsier. In the end, I decided I liked my home made windscreen better because it's a sturdier pot stand, and it works with multiple pots. Also it folds flat, which seems more efficient than the cone which is stored rolled up.

The second night I tested the trangia vs. the trail designs "pop-can" stove. Bottom line, Trangia won by 3 minutes. The trail Designs stove is 0.3 lbs lighter than the trangia, so it has that going for it. But if you want a faster boil, the Trangia was the winner. It's not hard to believe either when you look at the way the stoves burn. Clearly the Trangia has more power, the flame is bigger, hotter, and you can hear the air whooshing towards the flame.

If anyone is interested I can post pictures of the test setup and my home made windscreen.

-daniel-

Daniel.

did you measue how much fuel used in each case?

IMO the one that uses the least fuel is the winner not the fastest... ?

3 minutes means little to me once stopped and resting.... - I can be doing other stuff.

@mole

wouldnt that have to do with external temp - I can see how in 30~40F its not that critical cause it will boil at the end even if the heat output isnt so strong...but what about colder temps or stronger winds where you need that extra output to make sure you actually get to the temp you want (whether its actually boiling or just below

M

not sure Mike
possibly certain design of burners/windscreens might not work so well in the conditions you mention.

my point was that to me, the main 'winning' criteria for a backpacking stove is fuel efficiency as long as boil time is within sensible limits. After all, I have to carry the fuel whilst 3 extra minutes whilst I'm resting costs me nothing!

I used a Trangia for 15 years since '85, but have used a cone (homemade) for the last 3-4 years (the last 2 with a Starlyte, previously various homemade pepsi/redbull canstoves). I don't consider a Trangia burner UL - even used with a cone.

I haven't had a problem attaining a boil at acceptable fuel efficiency (I measure a dose from medicine cup per boil) with wind (cones are good for that) or problem wioth cold down to 18 deg F.

Having said all that, I've only ever done trips up to 2 weeks, so it's an ideal of efficiency I follow rather than a real necessity ;)

"If anyone is interested I can post pictures of the test setup and my home made windscreen."

Daneil, yes please! My Trangia 25 is my favorite stove.
I think the burner is fantastic, and blows away the dozens of Cat and Soda Can stoves I've made over the years. I have been thinking I need to make a lightweight windscreen / pot stand for the Trangia, as the whole 25 kit, while a fantastic cook kit, is a tad heavy....

Yes, i probably should have measured the stoves before and after to determine fuel usage.

The Temp outside when i did the testing was approx. 40 deg F. Mild wind. Location, Portland OR USA.

Tonight it's a bit colder, maybe 31 deg F. I'll redo the tests, take some pictures, and post em up.


Thanks for the quick feedback on my first post to BPL.

-daniel-

Here is the plan for testing the Trangia alcohol stove vs. the Caldera Cone Sidewinder sized for the Evernew 3 cup aluminum pot (non-coated).

Both stoves will be timed how long it takes to bring 2.5 cups of water to a fast rolling boil. ( My thermos holds 2.5 cups :) )

The test will occur outside my house on a brick patio in Portland OR. Weather.com reports it's 29 deg F and wind is Calm. But I'll have a thermometer outside to get the actual temp.

Both stoves will be filled with 2 oz of "SLX" denatured alcohol. The stove and the fuel will be kept at room temperature before the test since I carry the stove and the fuel bottle on an inside coat pocket in the field.

Test Setup for the Caldera Cone:

2.5 cups of water is poured into 3 cup evernew pot, covered, and placed outside to cool down.

The Caldera Cone is put together, the 2 vargo tent stakes go in the bottom of the 2 rows of holes in the cone so that the pot doesn't slide all the way to the bottom of the cone. If I understand the directions from traildesigns, this is the proper height for alcohol stove "mode". Then the cone is set aside.

The bottom reflector is put in place, and the traildesigns "12-10" alcohol stove ( warm from inside ) goes in place on top of the reflector. The stove has 2 oz of fuel inside. ( also warm from inside ).

To prime the stove, I tip it slightly while filled with fuel until a tiny drop of fuel wets the primer tray.

Right away, I light the priming tray with a lighter and count 20 seconds to allow the stove to warm up.

After 20 seconds, The cone is placed around the stove. Then I hold the cone in place with my fingertip hooked on one of the bottom vents and gently rock the pot left to right / left to right, until it slides into the cone and settles onto the tent stakes running thru the middle. This is necessary because of the tight fit of the cone around the pot.

Finally, I'll record the start time of the test.

The test has ended once the water comes to a fast rolling boil. At this point I will record the end time and extinguish the stove.

To extinguish the stove, again I have to hold the cone in place with my fingernail hooked on a bottom vent of the cone. ( This is because of the tight fit of the cone against the pot ). The I lift the pot out of the cone and set it aside. Then using the pot holder, I remove the cone exposing the stove. Then I use the pot holder to scoot the stove off the reflector. Then using the pot holder I pickup the reflector and gently use it to cover up the top of the stove.

After 60 seconds the stove should be cool enough to handle. Then the remaining fuel is poured into a measuring cup to determine how much fuel was used. ( Ideally I would have weighed the stoved before and after, but my luggage scale simply isn't accurate enough for this. )

Test setup for the Trangia stove.

2.5 cups of water is poured into the evernew 3 cup pot, covered and placed outside to cool off.

The trangia is filled with 2 oz of SLX denatured alcohol. Both stove and fuel are warm from inside until the test begins because I carry the stove and the fuel bottle in an inside jacket pocket out int he field.

The homemade windscreen is unfolded, shaped into a pentagon and clipped in place. The wind screen is set aside.

The bottom reflector is put in place and the trangia is placed in the center of it.

To prime the stove, I put the lid on the stove while it is filled with fuel. I screw the lid on tight, but not "death-grip" tight. Just enough to engage to the rubber gasket in the lid. Then I turn the stove over, upside-down for a second or two. Then I turn it back right-side-up and quickly remove the lid. Then place the stove on the bottom reflector and light the stove with a lighter where ever it is wet with fuel. I usually hold the lighter to the top edge of the stove near the tiny holes.

Then I count 20 seconds to allow the stove to warm up. Then the "pentagon" windscreen is placed around the stove, and the pot sits covered on the windscreen.

Finally, I record the start time of the test.

The end of the test is when the water in the pot is brought to a fast rolling boil. At this point I will record the end time of the test.

Then the stove is extinguished. To extinguish the stove I use the "simmer ring" completely closed to cover the flames of the stove.

After 60 seconds the stove should be cool enough to handle. The remaining fuel will be collected in a measuring cup to determine how much fuel was used. ( Ideally I would have weighed the stoved before and after, but my luggage scale simply isn't accurate enough for this. )

Here is my cook kit based on the Caldera Cone Siderwinder sized for the Evernew 3 cup aluminum non-coated pot.





The pot, lid, fuel bottle, "12-10" alcohol stove, cone windscreen / pot stand all come included in the Caldera Cone "Sidewinder" kit from trail designs. The pot holder in the picture alos comes from the trail designs website. Notice it fits perfectly in the pot along with the rolled up wind screen. Unfortunately, this specific sidewinder kit is not able to stow the "12-10" stove in the pot. But I knew that ahead of time, and there are plenty of other Sidewinder kits that are able to stow the whole kit in the pot. I just wanted the smaller pot.

The other non-standard items are the orange jetboil extending spoon, and the black stuff sack came from a GSI Ketalist

The only thing missing is lighter and fuel. Total weight: 0.6 lbs



Here's a few pictures showing the Caldera Cone setup for Alcohol Stove "mode".





Here's my cook kit based on the trangia with a home-made windscreen / pot stand and the same evernew 3 cup aluminum non-coated pot. Notice how the stove ( with lid and simmer ring ), 5 oz fuel bottle, pot holder, measuring cup, ( and eventually a lighter ) will all fit in the pot perfectly. Then the windscreen / pot stand folds flat and sits at the bottom of the stuff sack with the bottom reflector under the pot and lid. Minor note: The lid to the pot has to be flipped upside down in order to fit on top of the pot properly while it is storing the rest of the cook kit.







Total weight including the lid and simmer ring: 0.9 lbs
In case anyone is curious... If you remove the lid and simmer ring from this, the total wieght is reduced to 0.8 lbs. This might be seen as a more apples to apples comparrision since the "12-10" stove doesn't have a lid or a simmer ring feature.

Here's some pictures of the home made windscreen. I purchased it from amazon ( search for "Duogreen Stove Heat Reflector" ). Then using a hack saw and metal snips I cut it in half and snipped off 6 panels. Then I took some stiff wire and bent it into a tight "u" shape. This acts as a clip to hold it in the pentagon shape.

The first picture shows the windscreen and bottom reflector sitting at the bottom of the stuff sack. Then the others show the windscreen unfolded ( notice the clip in the bottom right corner of the pic ) and then finally setup with the stove "ready for blast off".











Here's some pictures of the two stoves side by side.

** Important Note: I was not able to fill the Caldera "12-10" stove with 2 oz of fuel. It was maxed out at 1.5 oz. So both tests were completed with 1.5 oz of fuel in each stove. **

Here's the results: Outside Temp: 39 deg F

The Caldera brought 2.5 cups to fast rolling boil in 8 minutes 57 seconds. 3/8 oz. fuel left over.

It's likely that there was more fuel left over than is listed above. The Caldera stove was hard to extinguish. It took at least 1 full minute to go out after it was smothered.

The Trangia brought 2.5 cups to fast rolling boil in 7 minutes 37 seconds. Only a few drops of fuel was left over.

This means the Caldera is indeed more fuel efficient and lighter, but also a tad bit slower.

Here's pics from the testing:

The Caldera Cone is first followed by the trangia: