In Australia we have "fair go" as our most cherished value . That includes education ( University students can get a no interest loan from the Government and pay it back once they start earning money), medical care and welfare (the dole). So to most the idea of taking advantage of a charity ( not a business...) doe pose an ethical dilemma. Since some subtle differences seem to get lost crossing the Atlantic, we would see nothing wrong with a shivering out of luck person picking up a $3,000 coat for $10, but it would bother some if the same coat was purchased for the same price by someone earning $150k PA. Again nobody here is going to pay more than the ticketed price in a shop, but we see charities organizations at a different level.
Franco

Franco (and other Aussies):

If what you say is representative of the "conventional view" in Australia, then we will have to recognize the difference for what it is.

But tell me this. A tinge of guilt notwithstanding -- when shopping at a thrift store -- do most Australians middle class and up really do a mental calculation in their heads and pay commensurately more than the tagged price?

"Hey cashier, I am a chartered accountant who makes A$200,000 a year. So I'm going to pay A$200 for this Arcteryx jacket (retails A$400) instead of the A$12 shown on the tag. Thanks." I mean, really you guys do this?

I think most Americans would not feel "immoral" at all about paying the tagged price at a Goodwill thrift store. I know I don't. But we are also the same people that collectively make America one of the more generous nations in the world in terms of giving and volunteering.

Edited by ben2world on 01/28/2008 15:04:13 MST.

It is a very hypothetical question simply because I have never seen any outdoor gear that I would be interested in inside any charity store. In other words the likelihood of you finding a Suunto watch for $10 at the local Salvation Army outlet is virtually nil.
I was just trying to explain the point of the thread. Personally I have a problem with "organized" religion, (particularly the ones that tell you that their God will punish you forever for having been temporarily bad) so I look around but never buy anything from those stores. Nevertheless a few weeks ago I donated a pile of goods (books, vases,a couple of working mini Hi Fi, as new clothing from the variable girth wife, so not junk; after all some of benefit goes to the victims of "society") to one of those stores because in spite of my dislike for them it was better (ethically to me) than landfill.
I have purchased a few things of little value from the "cashconverters" , I would buy a collectors type camera from them but not anything relatively new as a lot of their stuff is of dubious origin. ( i.e., a $2,000 bike priced at $150 is more likely to have been stolen than a Kodak Retina)
What others do is the same as most other "if", you don't know till you are there. Recently we had some enormous floods in the north. The media focused on the callousness of "widespread looting". In reality there was one case of a few individuals robbing a block of flats. This was in an area of about 600,000 square km. I would guess that in some other countries a few more would have taken "advantage" of the situation.
The Fair Play extend to trying to do what is right regardless if there is a policeman around or not. Of course not everyone follows that but maybe we try a bit harder than some.
Franco

Franco:

This has nothing to do with outdoors gear but everything to do with -- using your Aussie term -- fair go.

Excuse the harshness... but if Aussies who shop at local thrift stores pay just the tag price -- then turn around and sneer at others who do the same as somehow being immoral -- then the only word I know that fits would be "hypocrite"!

We all know that lots of stuff sold at thrift shops are priced ridiculously low -- as compared to retail -- even when taking into account their "second hand" status. This is why I asked about the scenario above -- do middle class and wealthy Aussies routinely volunteer to pay higher than tag prices when shopping at their local thrift shops -- just because they earn higher incomes? I am not seeing "fair go" at work from reading your response.

Franco, Arapiles (and other Aussies): I am asking a very simple question. Yes or no?

Edited by ben2world on 01/28/2008 16:26:57 MST.

Answer :no.
As stated the all scenario does not apply to me. As far as I can see it was not meant to be a "Australians v Americans" or even a "what we do" but rather a "what we should do" comment.
But to answer your question I have no evidence that here anyone pays more than the ticketed price, but again we don't have ( with outdoor gear) that choice anyway since we never see any of those "bargains" for sale.
Note that I never stated, prior to my last post, what I would do.
Franco

Here in Washington many pawnshops are chains now and most everything brought in is checked. A pawn shop isn't going to sell a $2K item for $150 - they are in business to make money!
Rather this.....you rarely find deals in pawnshops. Seriously. A good example is buying used guns at them: you don't know what its condition is, how it was cared for, etc. You can do better buying used at a gun shop!

As for deals? How about REI garage sales? You have an issue with those? Heck yes I gloat when I get a good deal! It usually involves me pawing through tables and carts full of JUNK to find one good item. And, no I don't feel that by shopping at the sales it is "unethical". Hello, they price the stuff to SELL. If no one buys it, it gets heaved at the end of the sale! In my REI times I have gotten a brand new tent for $7, Like new Chaco's for $10, hiking shirts that were like new for a couple dollars, once I got womens GTX pants for $20, with tags on. They didn't want them anymore and priced them to move-eth. I got a pair of Mtn Hardware pants ($100 retail) for under $20 - but I had to replace the zipper. Once I got Ford a never used REI sleeping bag for $20 something. Seems the people couldn't zip it up right and returned it. Worked fine for me.

Thing is these deals? They were all items that REI accepted for returns or were clearanced out. They don't want them!

REI often dumps items used in photoshoots that is new for cheap. They wrote it off so it is perfectly ethical to pay what they ask for it.

I feel perfectly ethical paying the price asked for if I agree that it is value to me. Just because I see the value in it doesn't mean anybody else does. Hence why used stores sell cheap. An average person in a thrift store wouldn't know the difference between Coleman and Mtn Hardware. They'd see hiking pants and not have a clue what they are.Same with anything else.

A year ago I picked up a like new pack for my growing son at a REI garage sale. Its return tag stated "Pack was not heavy enough". Yes, that was the actual reason someone returned it to REI. I kid not.

I paid $20 for it. It was valued new at $160 or so. If this pack had been used it was for a few feet at most. It smelled new.

One time years ago when Ford was little, the local REI was selling off old rental packs. It was late on a Sunday when they often will make deals to move junk out. I asked and bartered and got a couple Kelty kids externals for $5. They were all old and no one wanted them. I was able to piece them together to make one super backpack for the kid. And I felt that $5 was overpaying (those packs stunk and were filthy). But, with a little work I was able to save them. Apparently no one else wanted to.

I have now found 3 daypacks that were being sold at the garage sales minus the hydration bladders. The packs were returned due to leaky bladders. Well...score indeed! Cheap to boot.

Heck, the basement at the REI in Seattle has bargains to be had 7 days a week. That is where returns and broken and or mega clearance items go.

Franco:

I appreicate your honest answer. Fair go or not, at least you are not a hypocrite.

When Arapiles asked his question about the ethics of paying low tag prices and walking out with great merchandise at thrift shops, some posters tried to skirt the issue by clouding the meaning of thrift shop. I (and others) simply answered with a straightforward answer -- we believe it is ethical and no, we do not pay more than tag prices.

But having answered, and then reading repeated posts from Aussies about the supposed cultural difference in the Land of Oz and its emphasis on "fair go" -- I am most curious how this "fair go" is actually applied at Aussie thrift shops!

My take now is that in the world of thrift shops, Aussie shoppers are actually no different from American shoppers. Richer Aussie shoppers apparently don't volunteer to pay more as a matter of routine -- "fair go" notwithstanding. And we are now back to Square One -- but at least we are together.

Arapiles -- take it from here!

Edited by ben2world on 01/28/2008 16:40:28 MST.

I understand why buyers that make a "steal" want to brag about it. They seek to attract others like them. I think this can be positive or negative to the "theives".

If it's a big web sale, then great. That's a win-win. You got it cheap. They reduced their inventory. Win-win. Positive energy.

However, if your "victim" is a charitable entity, then you're not hurting them as much as you're hurting yourself by missing the happiness you'd have experienced if you'd given them more because you realized that they did not know.

You'll be happier - poorer, too, but you won't care. Imagine someone posting that they found something too cheap at a thrift and paid a bit more because it was for a good cause. Such a post will attract likes, too, if there are any around.

So George, can you share with us your happier moments when you paid more than sticker for gear or clothing at a thrift shop?

Edited by ben2world on 01/28/2008 16:58:35 MST.

I've never bought gear in a thrift because I have not found anything I wanted. I have given many things to thrifts.

But the concept applies to everything we do. Here's a somewhat related example. I had a big tree cut down at my home because it was too close. When they gave me the estimate, I thought it seemed low. It took them two days instead of just one day to complete their work. They worked very hard. I talked to my wife and we agreed to pay them more than they quoted us. We did it.

When we paid for the work, they said that they would have lost money on this job and that they did not realize that it was going to take two days. We still got bargain. However, my wife and I really were glad we did it. The extra I paid was way more than I'd ever pay for gear in a thrift store if I ever found something there. More there is no way I could feel good about such a "steal" and then post about it.

Edited by gmatthews on 01/28/2008 17:07:52 MST.

I think all thrift stores should be shut down!
Only theives shop there. We dont need those kind of people in our town. Have you ever been to one of those places? The people are all shifty eyed and nervous, they walk out wearing sunglasses looking at the ground hoping no one will reconize them. I say good riddance! No decent person would shop at such a place.

Good gawd -- you totally described Dale Wambaugh! Were you following him? You pervert, you! :)














[Kidding... maybe that was me you saw...]

Edited by ben2world on 01/28/2008 17:25:19 MST.

LOL

Bottom line: karma is gonna get you.

Karma aint ethics its superstition.

In varying degrees, we're physically similar to all the other animals. What differentiates humans from the others is our potential to be aware of our intentions and the consequences of our actions. The choices you make becomes the path you take through your life.

WOW! You look aside for a minute and when you turn back you've found that your campsite has been avalanched over!

Interesting how much passion this discussion engenders. Could there be an underlying sense of guilt about the whole money thing?

It's funny how caught up people get about two concepts that seem to take over our whole lives: money and the clock. Both are invented, virtual concepts that merely act as representations of our perceptions of relationships with other people and the world around us. They don't actually exist except in our minds. Even the cash in your hand is just a promissory note for trading with another person, while the clock is just a measuring device that arbitrarily divides up the space of a solar revolution.

Perhaps it might help to look at the origins of buying and selling, when it was simply named bartering, when money wasn't used. Even today when you barter (which is what eBay is all about) you judge the value of something according to how much the other person wants it, or compare it to how much you value something that the other person is willing to give you back in exchange.

What I am trying to say is that nothing in the world has any monetary value at all; it is purely arbitrary how people come up with the prices of things. If you saw an ancient earthenware figurine lying in the sand somewhere in the desert, which at one time was a plaything for a girl in a society thousands of years ago, what value would it have? Or if you walked into a village in New Guinea and a man there asked you to give him your Cocoon Jacket in exchange for his headdress, what would you consider a fair barter? It is the same for our things.

So when you walk into a thrift store and see an Arcteryx Gamma jacket for sale for $10.00 it is the arbitrary determination of many factors that brought it to that position. Someone decided that is what it was worth. There is no ethical debate, only a serendipitous occurring of events.

Would I feel bad about buying something at a ridiculously low price? Not at a thrift store. If I were standing at a garage sale and a little old lady who didn't know better about the worth of her recently deceased son's collection of UL goods which she was selling for just $20.00, well, I'd think better of what I was offering.

What we did with the twelve MSR stoves (as mentioned in the first post) that we found in box marked 'FREE' across the street from our house...Well, not all at once, but over a couple weeks we tested every one of them and were delighted to find they all worked perfectly. They are now awaiting a light clean-up and the purchase of some valves (almost no valves were present) at which point we will sell them one at a time for profit in the 'employee sale' corner of the outdoor gear shop my husband works for after keeping for our collection one of every model. Remember that free piles and junk store shopping are ways to reduce consumer demand for new goods and a good way to recycle and reuse.

Edited by lollygag on 01/28/2008 20:41:18 MST.

Ethics, and integrity, are what you do when you know nobody will be checking on you.

Where I live getting rid of furniture or bikes is hard to do: the thrift stores don't take them. I will not meet people off of Craigslist at my house (no thank you!) so that leaves me with 2 choices: the dump or in front of my house for free.

Do I expect some stranger to come running up to my house screaming loudly "Yoohoo! Did you know this bike is worth $20-40? This kids toy chest costs $50 new?"

NO!!!! I want that stuff gone. So I park it on my driveway on a sunny day on a weekend. And it is gone in an hour or two. And my house is clean, the dump with one less item. I know very well I tossed something worth money and I don't care. It got recycled and got a better home.

And that is how I see thrift stores and garage sales. Now argue with that.